Would we be better off in Ireland or Scotland?

[PonderingAMove]

Hi,

I currently live in England in a very academic city, and my ds is struggling in school because he can't keep up.

The problems he talks about are that there are sheets of sums on the screen and he can't get them finished before they disappear and a new page of sums appear. He can't keep up in dictation class, he can't go fast enough in spelling tests, even though he gets all the spellings right. He does well with the questions given time to do them, and did well in his SATs. However, he can't go fast enough for the pace of the class and I worry that they are burning him out while he is still only 7.

I think the reason for this is partly that the work is very fast paced and he is surrounded by very bright children. Almost all of the kids have two graduate parents, and several of the parents are university lecturers. In addition to this, ds is young for the year, is behind because of health issues in his early years, and I think he may have some very mild SEND issues holding him back that have not been diagnosed yet. (He responds slowly when spoken to but understands written instructions quickly.)

I talked to a child psychologist and she said the school system in England is very driven at the moment and that there's no way to get away from it here.

However, my dh is job hunting at the moment and I'm wondering whether we should be seriously considering a move to Scotland (where I come from) or Ireland (where my dh comes from).

I was just like my son at his age and I benefited massively when I moved from a very driven English school to a move relaxed Scottish school. The flip side is that we are not very robust and I know I find the wetter climate very hard to manage.

I wondered if the difference in educational ethos is still there and whether ds would really do better in a different system? I really worry about him here because a lot of young adults around here have dropped out before university because they couldn't take the pace. These are kids whose parents are academics themselves.

I would be glad to hear from any teachers who have worked in both England and either Scotland or Ireland.

Thanks!

I may have missed comments on this but lm interested in the fact that you had problems with your eyes as a child as your ds could have this too. Copying from a board can be difficult in that case as tracking is an issue.
I am a teacher in lreland. Your ds would have started school at 5 so be still in infant section. No way would he be copying maths from a board or chunking. Everything would be less pressurised. However lrish are known all over the world for an excellent all round education in the end. There is a huge emphasis in families on education but its at a slower pace to begin with. I am dumbstuck with the stuff l read on here about your system.
But if your ds has specific difficulties its best to get to the bottom of these first.

Thanks junebirthdaygirl that's good to know. My son's eyes seem to be okay. I have had them carefully tested and he reads very very well. I'm having other things tested just to be sure though.

I'm glad to know that he wouldn't be doing chunking at this age.

Things are more complicated now as my parents have decided to move here and have had an offer accepted on a house, so I think we're stuck here now. That was what really brought the question to a head here.

Since we're clearly stuck here I'm taking my courage in both hands and challenging the school much more. ds has been told that there are no afternoon breaks from now on as he is now KS2. The children in the class say they need a break and the teacher agrees but she says it's a school rule and she seems to have no confidence at all about trying to change it.

I told her how very strongly I feel about the school ethos of excessive hothousing, and I really put it very much as strongly as I have on this thread. I am keeping challenging them. Thanks for the encouragement here. It's really helping me to stand up for him.

Can I ask if there is any way to spot what is reasonable work for a year 3 child, so that I can spot if they are asking more then the curriculum demands?

People say that some English schools are not so pushy and I can believe that, but the school always says "this is what the curriculum demands". How do I challenge that, and where can I find the information on how teacher interpret the curriculum? To me the curriculum seems quite vague and I could see that the school could interpret it in different ways.

Thanks!

I've only read the first page because my dogs are annoying me for a walk but I had to respond before I go. I teach in an Irish primary school (I jobshare which is why I'm walking my dogs at 10am on a Monday!) and I teach First Class ie children turning 7 this academic year. I also have two children so see school from the parent's perspective too.

I had to do a double take when I saw that your ds is expected to do division at this age. My children are learning numbers up to 20 (addition and subtraction within 20) and I can't believe that the average child of 7 is ready for division, to really understand it. And what's the hurry? It doesn't mean that the school is better because they're doing harder maths- the opposite is true.

Our system is far from perfect. But I can honestly say that we teach the children the curriculim, and not the other way around. Each child is expected to work at their own pace. We don't have the targets that there are in English schools. Our schools are inspects (like your Ofsted inspections) and reports publicly published but there are no targets to meet. Criticisms are usually about planning etc, not about the care of the children (of course there are bad schools too but they are unusual.)
As mathanxiety says, if your family wants to go on holidays, as long as your child hasn't missed lots of other days throughout the year, the schools turn a blind eye. Absences only have to be reported when they reach 20 days.
And as for your ds being left to wet himself during his tests, I just can't comprehend how that can happen, I really can't. As a teacher, I feel a duty to really care for the children in my class, not just to teach them. They have to feel safe and valued to be able to learn well. I have never ever heard of anything like that happening to anyone I know.

Please take your son out of that school. All they care about are their statisitics and they're willing to throw him under the bus to get what they want. I don't know much about the Scottish system but what I do know is positive. Also N Ireland has a very good school system. And here, I would hope that your son would be cherished in school, not tortured.

Poor lad.

Thanks for your thoughts on this mineallmine . It's good to know it's not just us.

The curriculum here says the following for this year. Do you think it is reasonable to expect his level of work?

Pupils should be taught to:

 recall and use multiplication and division facts for the 3, 4 and 8 multiplication tables

 write and calculate mathematical statements for multiplication and division using the multiplication tables that they know, including for two-digit numbers times one-digit numbers, using mental and progressing to formal written methods

 solve problems, including missing number problems, involving multiplication and division, including positive integer scaling problems and correspondence problems in which n objects are connected to m objects.

I'm working very closely with the new teacher this year, and going in to look at ds's books once a week to see what he is not out of his depth. I'd still be glad to know if you think the aims of the year are reasonable though.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-curriculum-in-england-mathematics-programmes-of-study/national-curriculum-in-england-mathematics-programmes-of-study#year-3-programme-of-study
Year 3 programme of study (England).

www.curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/9df5f3c5-257b-471e-8d0f-f2cf059af941/PSEC02_Mathematics_Curriculum.pdf
Irish primary curriculum here (pdf). Your DS would be in 2nd class in Ireland.
The operations investigated are addition and subtraction of whole numbers and fractions.

I believe Ireland has actually done better than the UK in OECD or PISA tests in maths in recent years.

Or if he has just turned 7, he would be in 1st class.

That's interesting. So in second class in Ireland they explicitly exclude multiplication and division from the curriculum. My ds is a May birthday and is now 7 years and 4 months old.

I really find it weird that they push them to do stuff so young in England. It's not just division and multiplication. Some of ds's peers are being readied for boarding school, and some of his peers in this town (though not in our school) are already at boarding school. It's so extremely different from my home town in Scotland, where it's very normal to stay at home until the end of Undergraduate study.

The thought of boarding school for such young children leaves me speechless. No wonder the school is hothousing. You may have inadvertently landed in a feeder school for some dreadful public school prep and the school's only mission is to keep its reputation as a safe bet for those whose children are destined for an 'education' mill. It's all very toxic, and the unfortunate children will end up emotionally stunted.

I would dissuade your parents from moving near you, and try to get your son into another school asap.

At 7 years and 4 months, your ds would be in First Class here. In First Class maths, the children learn addition and subtraction tables and operations with addition and subtraction. They learn 2 and 3D shapes, measures, in the clock they learn o'clock and half past. They learn a little data representation.

They absolutely and emphatically don't learn multiplication or division until 3rd class. At the end of Second Class they do some skip counting in preparation for multiplication and division.

I just can't imagine my little children who are currently learning 'the story of 14' learning such concepts. Maybe for the very mathematical children they might grasp it but why do it so soon? What's the hurry? There are no prizes for learning g it so early.

And why in heaven's name do they do the 3, 4 and 8 multiplication tables? The 8s are one of the hardest to learn. Why not start with 2 5 and 10?

And as for 'writing and calculating mathematical statements etc,' my children are still plenty challenged by writing Our News.

I don't get it, I really don't. Your poor son, it sounds miserable. At least he has you in his corner, thinking about how to make it better for him.

I'm just thinking, as a May birthday your ds could be in Second Class either if he had gone to school at just gone 4 (most May children would start at 5 and a bit here.) But still he would be doing addition and subtraction only apart from some skip counting.

YYY, 3, 4 and 8 are ridiculous.

My niece did 2, 5 and 10x to begin with (which segued nicely into the more complicated clock lessons) and that was in 3rd class iirc.

The English curriculum looks pretty random to me.

My own DCs went to school in the US.
www.education.com/common-core/first-grade/math/
Common core 1st grade math.
www.education.com/common-core/second-grade/math/
Common core 2nd grade math.

It's all addition and subtraction, with place value.

I personally think it does no harm at all to develop addition and subtraction to multiplication and division, but only if a Vygotsky system is in place.

"And why in heaven's name do they do the 3, 4 and 8 multiplication tables? The 8s are one of the hardest to learn. Why not start with 2 5 and 10?" They do start with the 2,5,10X tables in Key Stage 1.

Having already done 2, 5 and 10 timetables (and started on 3), continuing to consolidate 3, then moving to 4 and 8 makes a lot of sense. It isn't random.

4 times a number (N) is like 2x N, then 2x again. Doubling and doubling again.

And 8 times is just a further doubling after 4. 8 times table is not hard when it is learned in it's relation to the 4 times table. If you were to simply go up the numbers and do first 2, then 3, then 4, (then 5 if not yet had), then 6, then 7, then 8, ... Yes then 8 times table can be a bit tricky, but that WOULD be a random way of teaching them.

I presumed from the post that they had started with 3s 4s and 8s. We teach 2s first. Then 5s and 10s. Then 2s again followed by 4s and 8s. 3s 6s 9s are next. And finally the 7s - by wich time only 7x7 is a new number fact, they'll have covered all the others. The hardest for children to LEARN are the 6s 7s and 8s even though 6s are double 3s and 8s are double the 4s. They're still hard to learn nonetheless.

• he gets all his spellings right
• he did well in his SATs
• he is only 7
• he processes written information like 'lightening'

Yet you feel he is behind and need to leave the country ?

Madness.

3 is the odd man out there. It belongs with 6 and 9.

KS1 is still too early to start on multiplication, unless the properties of operations are the focus and not the number facts. Students get very frustrated with an approach where they are expected to learn the facts, and very anxious too. If there is little or no attention to the properties of the operations they are looking at, they lose track of one of the main take aways from arithmetic and the whole thing turns into a joyless and meaningless grind.

"KS1 is still too early to start on multiplication, unless the properties of operations are the focus and not the number facts" just as well schools use CPA.

Even CPA has its drawbacks if children spend an inordinate amount of time getting the concepts, which can happen for all sorts of reasons including children's tendency to miss the point, but it is more likely to happen in an overcrowded classroom or if the teacher hasn't communicated the concept well. As an example of what can go wrong, some children believe that colouring in really neatly is the purpose of homework in maths or English that requires colouring. It can appear to them that the process is the end in itself.

Solution don't give colouring in homework.