Would we be better off in Ireland or Scotland?

[PonderingAMove]

Hi,

I currently live in England in a very academic city, and my ds is struggling in school because he can't keep up.

The problems he talks about are that there are sheets of sums on the screen and he can't get them finished before they disappear and a new page of sums appear. He can't keep up in dictation class, he can't go fast enough in spelling tests, even though he gets all the spellings right. He does well with the questions given time to do them, and did well in his SATs. However, he can't go fast enough for the pace of the class and I worry that they are burning him out while he is still only 7.

I think the reason for this is partly that the work is very fast paced and he is surrounded by very bright children. Almost all of the kids have two graduate parents, and several of the parents are university lecturers. In addition to this, ds is young for the year, is behind because of health issues in his early years, and I think he may have some very mild SEND issues holding him back that have not been diagnosed yet. (He responds slowly when spoken to but understands written instructions quickly.)

I talked to a child psychologist and she said the school system in England is very driven at the moment and that there's no way to get away from it here.

However, my dh is job hunting at the moment and I'm wondering whether we should be seriously considering a move to Scotland (where I come from) or Ireland (where my dh comes from).

I was just like my son at his age and I benefited massively when I moved from a very driven English school to a move relaxed Scottish school. The flip side is that we are not very robust and I know I find the wetter climate very hard to manage.

I wondered if the difference in educational ethos is still there and whether ds would really do better in a different system? I really worry about him here because a lot of young adults around here have dropped out before university because they couldn't take the pace. These are kids whose parents are academics themselves.

I would be glad to hear from any teachers who have worked in both England and either Scotland or Ireland.

Thanks!

That teacher sounds batshit.

We relatively recently moved back to Ireland (both from Dublin originally) and are very happy listening to friends and family's experiences of the education system. In general, I much prefer it to the UK system: especially at secondary where there's less pressure to specialise and pick a set of subjects. There seems to be much more respect for parents knowing their child. I can't comment on the Scottish system, but I can say I would personally be wary of NI simply because of what people have told me about the religious segregation that does still go on. I had one former colleague who was educated in a mixed school - one which prided itself on integration- and he said it was still the norm that Catholics would sit with Catholics and protestants with protestants. It's so far away from how I was raised I can't imagine supporting a child to navigate that. I appreciate things may have improved somewhat since then but I do spend some time in Belfast with work and the issues certainly aren't all historic.

If your DH is from Dublin presumably he has family and friends who could advise- I do think a lot depends on the school. We're near a lovely educate together primary school and everything I know about their ethos and approach sounds great to me, but housing prices in Dublin have gone insane so I'd look into that carefully before considering moving.

Thanks AppalachianWalzing Yes we looked at Dublin but the house prices are very steep indeed. That would be one of our options otherwise.

I know what you mean about early specialisation in England. That doesn't seem ideal at all but the Baccalaureate seems to be helping somewhat with that. It requires the child to do well in a language subject but my ds seems to be pretty good at languages so I'm not so worried about that.

My child (8) is in a school in England (North East) which does not resemble the school you are describing in any way whatsoever. It is nurturing, inclusive and really rather lovely. I will be heartbroken when my child has to leave. There are NO similarities to the school you are describing.

This school wasn't my child's catchment school. I went round and visited all the schools in our town. Our catchment school was more academically driven and stricter (though nothing like what you are describing) and we preferred the school we chose.

You really get a feel of a school by doing a visit. I was not really concerned about the Ofsted (though actually the school is 'outstanding') but concerned on feel of school, what head said and did and how the classes were that we briefly watched. You learn a lot.

I know you feel you are some way to resolving your situation now, but what do you have to lose by going and looking around the other schools that your son could reasonably travel to? You really need to compare the school experience your son is having now to what it could be like elsewhere then let that make your decision.

If after looking at all the relevant schools you don't think there is a better option, then that is your decision made (unless you relocate obviously). However, I bet my left kidney there will be something much better and more suitable out there locally that you will REALLY want to get your son into.

And do not rely on 'expert' opinion (ed psych) about what other schools are like and how similar they are. That is not the way to make a decision for your child. I have another child with SN and we would be in a completely different and worse place with their education if we had only taken 'expert' advice. Much advice - even when given by an expert, is three parts opinion to one part fact, it's just human nature. So it's better to advise yourself to get the closest thing you can to suit YOUR child.

Don't tamp down your concerns, they are wholly legitimate. Find out what else there is locally and COMPARE. Good luck with everything - I imagine it's been quite a strain on you all wondering why things aren't going smoothly and what you need to do about it as his parents.

ovenchips thanks, yes we actually did that before. The school ds is in is, by some distance, the gentlest in the area, as far as I can tell.

Crikey really?

In that case relocation may be worth considering. Though I am not convinced you'd have to only consider Scotland or Ireland. It may be necessary only to move out of area you are in?

As I said, I'm in NE England and have no personal or anecdotal knowledge of schools like that. You may just be terribly unlucky to only have those kind of schools in the area you are in.

Are you able to broadly say where you are?

ovenchips yes we're living within the campus area of an oxbridge University. The playground is carpeted with academics and one of the parents was at the head of the class queue yesterday egging the teacher on to push her child and teach him resilience. "He CAN do it!" she said. I feel tired for the child.

I'm not quite sure how far we need to move away to get a calmer school, or how to get my dh to his office if we do move there. The traffic is largely gridlocked here in rush hour and the council is going round and round in circles trying to work out what to do about it.

I keep wondering if we could just move out to a village or something, but I wouldn't like to do a whole big move like that and then find that we were still in the grip of the same system with a potentially less friendly head.

I've learned a lot from this thread though and am talking to the school about what we can do to help ds. They are nice people and are doing their best.

My heart goes out to you Pondering. Perhaps check out the village schools by word of mouth. It sounds like that other child needing 'resilience' may also be feeling the pressure. Sounds like the environment is wrong not a lack of resilience in the child. Learning should be fun. Like another poster said, my child goes into school wondering about the lunch options. He's not stressed to be there. And we're learning a lot from him because history is our great love but he loves maths. We just don't think that way.

Thanks Lissette it's really kind of you. This has been a very nice thread, and is really helping me to work things out.

Each update is sadder than the previous one! How resilient should children need to be at 7? It's up to the school to set their own standards of compassion and encouragement, regardless of the hothousing going on amongst the parents. Honestly OP, it sounds like your son is being failed badly.

EvelynWardrobe I think that some of the children are genuinely very bright and I hear some other parents complaining that the children are bored at school because the work is not hard enough. A neighbour of mine is in this category and her dd really does seem to just sail through life being perfect at everything.

I think there's just a huge range of ability probably because of where we are, and it's probably quite challenging for the school to deal with that, and also with the parents who as academics presumably have strong feelings about education.

Having said that I just chatted with another parent who says her son is overwhelmed and wetting himself because he can't cope. So it's not just us.

Oh dear. That's awful Pondering. I remember when my son was starting school my MIL, who is an academic who teaches primary school teachers, reminded me that primary school was really about socialisation. She was much less concerned about pushing things academically. So I've learned not to be so het up about him achieving things. As long as he reads, is happy, isn't bullied and continues to be curious then I'm happy. Bit worried about the local secondary teacher shortage and issues at secondary here but happy enough with primary.

Mind you my mil teaches primary school teachers in Ireland....

I don't think there is any fragment of the English system left that values social development over results, sadly Lissette.

I also just want to challenge the assertion of the OP's Ed Psych that Independent schools have to teach the National Curriculum. They don't. They don't have to do SATs either. Some may opt in to both, but many don't. Academies don't actually have to teach the National Curriculum either, but as they do have to do SATs it would be suicidal not to.

Lowdoorinthewal1 I think there is a tiny bit that still values social development. I found it in the SEND code of conduct section 6.18.

Assessment should include:

" progress in areas other than attainment – for instance where a pupil
needs to make additional progress with wider development or social needs in order to make a successful transition to adult life."

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/398815/SEND_Code_of_Practice_January_2015.pdf

I think that far fewer kids would need SEND consideration if social development was a higher priority, and precocious academic development a lower priority though.

In EYFS the Prime areas are personal, social and emotional development, physical development and Communication and language not academic subjects. Pressure from outside (sadly often from parents) drives some schools to push reading, writing and arithmetic.

With regards to Irish schools, I think they are certainly more relaxed about targets but without being less academic. They generally start school at 5 and spend a year longer at primary school than children in England. They do junior and senior infants plus 1st-6th class. School holidays are longer and the school day in primary is shorter. Friends in Ireland are horrified when I said that my DC were starting school at age 4 and would finish school at 3.20.

This makes everything less pressured as there's more time and space for kids to learn and master things before rushing to the next level. Also being at least a year older starting secondary school means that they cope better with the big changes that secondary school brings. My DS will have just turned 11 when he starts secondary school here next year but his Irish cousin will be turning 13 when he starts.

I told my frustrations to the deputy head of the board of governors in the playground today as well and wrote again to the head with that section from the SEND document.

Ds has just realised that some of the kids in his class are 9 months older than him and is starting to realise why they are finding things so much easier.

It's interesting to know that things are so different in Ireland. I didn't know that.

My children go to the local country school in Scotland and their school is very different to what you describe. In P1-3 they have just gone over to play based learning. Last week for measurement they read Jack and the Beanstalk and then had to go round the school measuring giants footsteps and comparing them to their own. The idea is that the child learns through play, particularly in maths. This is helping children who have difficultly sitting at a desk all day.
Children do get tested and we are not told the results. When my son was in P1 he really struggled with reading, and I'm sure his results were poor, however he is now an avid reader.
We live on the east coast of Scotland and get very little rain.

I live about an hour away from where I'm guessing you live Pondering, and my dc have been to two primaries, neither of which sound remotely as pushy as the school your ds goes to. My dd has slow processing and Irlens and so I feel your pain. But ultimately in a school where they are taught as individuals she (and my other dc) are thriving.

Nurturing, caring schools are out there in England.

On the negative side, you pay for everything in Irish schools. They use textbooks and workbooks which parents have to buy along with all stationary and anything else the teachers fancy. The back to school book list is the dread of most parents. Schools also ask for a payment for administrative and other costs.

Many Irish textbooks are compilations and can be handed down in families, and can also be bought second (third, fourth, etc) hand.

This is especially true in secondary.

Some schools also rent books to parents each year for a reasonable amount. But no academies/grammars/free schools and only one (state) exam board. And no SATS.

Yes, it's a bit more equal though of course socio economic status counts for a lot - same curriculum everywhere, one set of exams for everyone, no interviews and inspiring personal story essay to get into university. There are some schools that are definitely more desirable than others, but you can do really well and get your first choice of course and university even if you go to a little rural vocational school (as a DD of a cousin of mine just did this year).