Would we be better off in Ireland or Scotland?

[PonderingAMove]

Hi,

I currently live in England in a very academic city, and my ds is struggling in school because he can't keep up.

The problems he talks about are that there are sheets of sums on the screen and he can't get them finished before they disappear and a new page of sums appear. He can't keep up in dictation class, he can't go fast enough in spelling tests, even though he gets all the spellings right. He does well with the questions given time to do them, and did well in his SATs. However, he can't go fast enough for the pace of the class and I worry that they are burning him out while he is still only 7.

I think the reason for this is partly that the work is very fast paced and he is surrounded by very bright children. Almost all of the kids have two graduate parents, and several of the parents are university lecturers. In addition to this, ds is young for the year, is behind because of health issues in his early years, and I think he may have some very mild SEND issues holding him back that have not been diagnosed yet. (He responds slowly when spoken to but understands written instructions quickly.)

I talked to a child psychologist and she said the school system in England is very driven at the moment and that there's no way to get away from it here.

However, my dh is job hunting at the moment and I'm wondering whether we should be seriously considering a move to Scotland (where I come from) or Ireland (where my dh comes from).

I was just like my son at his age and I benefited massively when I moved from a very driven English school to a move relaxed Scottish school. The flip side is that we are not very robust and I know I find the wetter climate very hard to manage.

I wondered if the difference in educational ethos is still there and whether ds would really do better in a different system? I really worry about him here because a lot of young adults around here have dropped out before university because they couldn't take the pace. These are kids whose parents are academics themselves.

I would be glad to hear from any teachers who have worked in both England and either Scotland or Ireland.

Thanks!

Parent of a 9 year old in Scotland here. Move to the East coast a lot drier than the west!
But seriously though I think schools are much more relaxed and concentrate on the important things. I despair of the things I hear going on in English & Welsh schools. DC1 has significant SEN and I feel is well supported and encouraged. Not constantly knocked back by draconian testing and rigid rules. Kids in primary school need to learn how to learn not how to pass tests.
There seems to be a lot less bother over silly rules too.

My sons best friend here in ireland came from uk. His mom said that he really struggled in the English system, my son is 7 and got his first three spellings ever tonight. Clap, am and let. I think the real issue with the English system is the lack of flexibility around starting age. It doesn't allow for the fact that kids mature differently . Here a parent can choose to start a child at 4 or 5 and it allows parents to make a call that they believe works for their child. I really believe that one size does not fit all in that regard

My DS(7) sounds similar to yours- he has an auditory processing issue, although for him it has caused major spelling difficulties as he just can't process the subtly different phonemes. He is really quite bright, but would have to think about it to tell you, for example, out of duck, muck and mack, which three words rhymed. He just can't hear it. We also get the 'lag' when you speak to him unless you cue him in by name first. He is also August born.

He is in a non-selective 'family' (that's jargon for not very academic) prep. Even though he is bright, I know he will do better there than in a big class in a pressured state school. Please don't think an Outstanding school is necessarily the answer- many of them are grinding the children into the ground to get the data to keep them there. (I am a teacher).

Could you run to a laid back prep if you don't really want to move away?

Lowdoorinthewal1 That's very interesting that you are seeing the same things with your ds. A laid-back prep sounds good actually. How on earth do I find one of those though? I asked the child psychologist and she said the private schools here are worse than the state ones. We're in a very academic university town.

I'd be really glad to know if there was some special jargon that I should be looking out for in trying to find a good slow-moving school.

There is one school here that has a bit of a reputation for doing well with SEN kids and having good pastoral care, but it says on its website that it is top nationally for this, that and the other, and I do worry that they may be pushing the kids too hard if they are getting those sorts of results. It also had no playground, which is a bit of a disadvantage since we're in a city with nowhere for ds to run except at school.

Thanks for the comments on Scots and Irish schools Kaffiene and Amaried. That was exactly what I thought, and what I experienced myself as a child. Now if only we could find a way to dig ourselves out of here.

I'm disappointed for you. I think it's the school. I'm a chair of governors of a small primary (about 30 mins from academic university city) and we strive to not just focus on testing (as the govt wants us to do). For example we still have non curriculum enrichment afternoons.

Oh please try your utmost to get your little boy out of there. It sounds horrific.

My niece has just finished up primary in a fee-paying Dublin school with an excellent academic reputation and never had anything like the experience you have described.

My cousins outside of Dublin would be as appalled as I am to see your account. Many of them have put photos on FB this past week of smiling children off for their first day of school. Some are off to the same National School my mother and her siblings attended in the allegedly sunny south east.

You can take your child out of school (within reason - don't take the piss) for family holidays. They don't threaten to clap you in jail if your child is out because of illness. One of my cousins took the family to south east Asia to visit the birth city of one of his children for two weeks right after Easter this year - not a problem with the school. It was considered a wonderful opportunity for all the children to see and experience a different place.

In my experience, the laid back preps tend to be on the outskirts of town or out into the countryside- so you may have to drive out to one if you are in a city.

We affectionately call DS's prep the 'free range chicken farm' because whenever you walk in there seem to be smiley children cheerfully clucking round your feet. If you go and visit some, you will get a feel for the ones where the children are living the free range chicken lifestyle.

You mention glue ear, low iron and dental issues. Perhaps your child just felt unwell this year and will perk up in the next one.
What struck me Is how well he is doing despite a few health problems.
I wouldn't move as that is disruptive too.

What your DSis experiencing sounds awful and from everything I've read on here about the English system at primary level doesn't sound massively surprising.

Scotland is definitely much more laid back, BUT - this isn't necessarily a good thing. The kids are definitely under less pressure, and they MAY be happier in that regard, but that doesn't mean they are getting a good education or a good preparation for life. There are also teacher shortages in many parts of Scotland and that is putting pressure on schools who are dropping vital things in the process. I have dc at the top end of the academic spectrum who have been bored stupid at school and even now in high school are not being pushed. Equally, I have other dc who have struggled/are struggling and they haven't been given the support they need to achieve their best. They aren't at the bottom end of the spectrum and there are no specific additional needs, but I know plenty of kids who are in those situations who have also been neglected in Scottish schools because the schools are stretched so thin due to lack of teachers and lack of resources.

If we could get out of the Scottish education system we would in a heartbeat.

There HAS to be a balance between the two. I don't know about Ireland - I have many friends there but don't have any personal knowledge of their eduction system. NI however is excellent - much, much gentler start to primary than in either England or Scotland, much less focus on testing than in England, but still with high standards. NI out-performs England and Wales year in, year out at GCSE and A-level and yet their primary schools are much, much less pushy/stressful. At secondary level there is still the Grammar system across the whole country and the advantage of this is that those who are academic get the support they need and those who aren't so academic get the support they need. Many high schools are really, really excellent schools (in fact I would go as far as to say most not many) and get excellent grades so it certainly isn't the case of creaming off the best and then leaving the rest to struggle.

OP, I'm sorry you and your son are going through this. I went through the Irish system and now live in (a dry part of) Scotland with a primary school kid at school here. I'm happy with his progress and the schools here don't seem under pressure for targets as much as English schools. As it happens lots of academics (including me) send their kids to this school too but we seem to be a pretty relaxed bunch

Jed that's interesting. I don't have experience of secondary school in Scotland yet but I would share some of your concerns.

Put it this way Lisette - we have seriously considered private school which we are completely opposed to and also whether we could relocate to NI and have my DH commute back to Scotland Mon-Fri such are our concerns about the education system here. We have heard repeatedly that "bright kids will always do well" but that simply isn't the case and we are pretty far down a road of having a very bright dc who is completely disengaged from school and the school couldn't care less because their expectations are so low to begin with. My youngest is behind in literacy and numeracy - particularly in literacy - and most of the problem is confidence, but the school has done absolutely nothing to help despite her being in p3 now - she's not bottom so they don't care. (And even the kids who are bottom don't get support - the idea is very much help each child achieve what they can, but don't expect too much of anyone because we might upset them and we couldn't have that!)

We are stuck here for now but we will continue to seek ways to leave

Jedbartletforpresident Oh dear.

I'm watching with interest - one child struggling hugely with expectations and increasingly disengaged, and the other highly academic. If I could find an education system that catered for both of their very different needs, I'd be moving there in a flash!

frog I would honestly say that NI could be the answer there. The educational system itself is a huge part of it but there is also the culture there which I think helps. NI has a very small town feel to it, even in the cities - just in the way that people look out for one another and are nurturing towards one another. It's a gentler way of life and by and large people are welcoming and hospitable - having lived in NI, England, Scotland and Texas I would say that NI is the place where there are least "outsiders". I know that the media can paint a different picture and yes, parts of NI can be very parochial BUT for the most part it's a welcoming place and I think that's a big part of why the education system is so successful - people are welcomed, they're "in", they belong and find community and that helps massively. Eductionally too though the results speak for themselves - we would be back there in a heartbeat if we could

I hadn't even thought of NI. My dh could get a job in Dublin, but we've never looked at Belfast. I'm not sure there would be any jobs he could do as he's in rather niche computer stuff.

I hear the house prices are pretty amazing there though.

Yes unfortunately we are in the same position Pondering - I should probably amend requirements to perfect school system and plenty of jobs in fairly niche computer software area..not fussy, me. (I'm wondering if we live in the same place now as well!)

That's interesting Jed. I'm a bit concerned about teacher shortages where we are and of course having a good school head makes a difference.

Frogsoup Good to know we're not the only ones.

Thanks to all for chipping in here. It's really helping me to think through all the different factors in the problem.

I just asked my Mum who is a maths teacher and she says when she was at school they weren't allowed to talk, and they got the belt for looking out of the window. She said if ds can do sums and read then that is the thing that matters, which he can. That's a whole different view of things.

I was just about to say NI. Fantastic primary schools, outperforming the rest of the uk. No SATS (or if there are nobody mentions them). DD is 7 and couldn't do the maths question you mentioned, it sounds much more difficult than anything she'd be set. In P3 she got about 30 spellings a week. She loves school.

And yes, houses are really really cheap.

Disadvantages: NI is full of people who vote for the DUP. No abortion rights for women and no marriage equality. Schools are by and large religious even if they're not 'church' schools. Weather is a bit grim but better than Scotland I'd say.

Oh, and loads of people live in NI and commute to Dublin for work.

EvelynWardrobe Where do I look online to find out about houses in NI?

For houses in N Ireland the websites you need are

www.propertynews.com and www.propertypal.com