School won't keep our place - what to do?

[VitAL]

Hi all,
I'm really stuck with a difficult dilemma and would appreciate any thoughts. DC is currently at a very academic pre-prep, we chose it precisely for their leavers' destinations, they send a lot of children to three top selective indies high on our list and some pupils to a couple more selective schools. DC is happy there, but I want to give 4+ a go. I feel I would really regret if I don't, would be thinking all the time about opportunities lost and it's a bit easier to get in at 4+ than 7+. I wouldn't say DC is exceptionally academic at 3.5 but strong-willed (sometimes to the extent of being bossy with even older children), emotionally mature and disciplined/co-operative so I think could do quite well at 4+.

The problem is our school won't keep our place for Reception if they find out we're sitting 4+ and I think they easily can as it has very good links with most of the schools on our list. I have actually sent applications to two schools before I knew about our school's policy (it's not an official policy AFAIK but people talk). I've no idea if they actually ask for references and reports at 4+. I'm still thinking about applying to at least three more schools. I guess (I'm not 100% sure) I could leave the current school's details blank on application forms but I feel bad about it TBH.

If we get kicked out of the current school we might end up with no place at all. We might possibly get a last minute place at a non-selective non-academic indie, but that would mean extra money on tuition for 7+ with less chances and much more uncertainty as we plan to buy a house close to the school if DC gets in at 4+, if not that would be another 3-4 years in limbo.

I'm at a loss what to do and so stressed about the whole situation that I lost sleep. Should I abandon the whole idea and wait until 7+?Please help, I really need to make up my mind.

I don't live in London, so my experience is different
My 3 children went to an independent school from age 3. It became increasingly academic over the years, but I wasn't happy with the teaching. The 2 eldest were unhappy, and not doing particularly well.
We moved out of the city, and put all 3 in local schools. The 2 eldest are now in the local secondary school and are absolutely thriving, whilst the youngest is still in infant school and also doing well. My husband and I are both high achievers, but the children didn't thrive in that pressure environment.
My message is to keep an eye on things. All children are different, and don't all respond to the high academic pressure.

This certainly is not the reality in this country. It sounds horrendous. Thank god we don't live anywhere that anyone would consider this remotely normal or necessary.

(Writing as Oxford graduate married to Oxford graduate, also have an MSc & a PhD - so we do academic quite nicely ourselves).

I'm not sure ds2 (at grammar) will even do A levels - he's a bright boy but utterly uninterested in academics and has talents in other areas. Imagine if the poor kid had taken a 4+ exam for an academic school.

Can see ds3 as some sort of professor - he loves traditional academic work - and is thriving and loving learning in his mixed ability state school. He's an anxious child and constant test pressure would probably kill his very genuine love of knowledge and analysis.

@Sallyswot1 That's what I think about now - if DC2 is not happy and not coping, we'll pull out, but we wanted to give it a try first.

@0live Did you read my posts? DC1 went to local comp (was bored beyond belief BTW) and was not tutored for grammar at all. DC2 is not being tutored for 4+ and won't be. I'm inside NL bubble just because we live here, I do not approve of the way things are and we certainly know schools can be very different, less stressful and equally academic as DH went to a local state school where both hedge fund multimillionaires' and local blue collar workers' children studied together and it produced great community spirit and a couple of Nobel laureates :) Just because the systems are different as well as attitudes and expectations. We certainly know all this by experience, but our jobs are in London for the foreseeable future and there is no school of this kind here, neither North nor South.

I assume that no-one who is so disapproving has ever:

• moved house for a school
• discovered God for a school
• rented in a catchment area then moved back to their actual home

you work with the system you are in. Everyone I know in an academic N London school is fully aware that they aren't for all children and they will move if necessary.

@Shurleyshummishtake I don't have huge aspirations for DC2 as the less gifted of us all. I'm being very realistic actually.

I've been following this thread. It's very interesting.

I feel whilst people are aware of London being being in a bubble education wise they don't appreciate how this then makes decisions very different to the ones they may have made.

I think it is choice that makes the decisions so difficult. There are just so many options in London. If you have finances to support your choices and a bright child I can see how knowing what the best thing to do is, would be really difficult.

Dd1 is a non selective pre prep outside London, but seems bright and we have a decent choice of schools in the area. Whether we consider selective 7+ options or remain in her current school is frequently in my thoughts.

you work with the system you are in.
Exactly, wickerlampshade. I personally don't like it much (is there anyone who does?), DH is kind of flabbergasted by the details, though being the head of alumni club at his MBA he knows full well the correlation between schools and careers among UK graduates (nothing or very little of this kind for European ones) so it is by no means a surprise, but the reality we would've been fools to disregard.

You appear to have decided on which careers are 'acceptable' already?

Nope wicker - have never done any of those things for a school.

Did select school's based on whether the child could get there independently (severely disabled brother, do they had to).

Very happy with both schools. The future careers are up to them.

You appear to have decided on which careers are 'acceptable' already?
No. It's your projections, Devilishpyjamas.
Though for DC1 it's pretty much obvious as gifted in maths.

Goodness me - DS2 marked as 'the less gifted of us all' at three.

Can such a thing be determined at such a young age? More importantly should it?

"Honestly, I wouldn't like to start yet another holy war on ways of schooling, they're aplenty and boring at that smile but if it's genuine interest my answer would be nothing extraordinary really at this age. It's just early stages curriculum, just a year or so ahead of the cohort. DC has been doing lots of spelling recently as far as I can tell as tries to read every single street name on the way home. Plus some behavioural training like sitting, concentrating, following instructions, speaking in front of the class doing kind of 'presentation' etc. That's just the basics needed to be able to cope with a fast pace at a highly selective school later on. I'm sure they do all that in other schools too, just maybe a bit later and not that strictly. It's not rocket science.
As for toilet, DC was potty trained at 1.5 and it is by no means unusual, some places just won't accept a child if not fully trained before starting nursery. I know of only one child who still needs to be reminded. So yes, at 3 it's half a life ago for many "

Gosh feeling stressed just reading it. Glad my 4 yrs old preschool dc is going to an outstanding state school and we spend our time exploring the world a this stage.

zzzzz no idea what area of the country you live in but all of those things are v common where we are.

If DC1 could read fluently and silently at 3 without much teaching (in fact, with very little initial teaching, then self-taught) and DC2 only knows two alphabets and does a little spelling at the same age, yes, I think I can compare my children and am entitled to my opinion as well as to changing it later if the facts prove me wrong.

I appreciate your concern about my children, but they are mine, not yours. I think you'll be more comfortable reading Highgatemums, LittleBearPad. It appears to fit your perception of the world better than complex reality :) It's always reassuring to confirm one's own prejudices by whatever means available online :)

Oh my goodness. I went there and Andrea was in charge then (I'm 40 this year!). By far the best start in life especially as I loved leaning. It was perfect and I still remember the tiny class sizes. By the time I left, aged 7, I was externally assessed and marked as being gifted (I'm not now!)

Thanks for the memory jolt!! (And sorry for the digression!)

Oh I used to live there Vital. I'm well aware of the silliness of North London.

By the way, I think I understand where you're coming from Vital. It's not just the outcomes (job, uni etc) it's the journey.

My mum sees that despite my having an independent education and my sister did not, she actually did better academically (me financially). She's actually pretty resentful she "wasted" that money on me, but I don't agree. It was the best thing for me as it supported my eagerness to learn in just the right time and way.

Having gone through this process with my two children, both state educated, I have to say that most state education in London is no way near adequate.

Oh I used to live there Vital. I'm well aware of the silliness of North London.

Then it shouldn't be "mind-boggling" to you as you said in your post
(hilarious reading btw :) and we had Dali's painting on 3yo BD cake and the right shade of border please so yes it must be all about us :) except it was a family-only party and our idea of fun is nobody's business).

It's not just the outcomes (job, uni etc) it's the journey.
Yes, BeingMePls, this is my view of things. Grammar school is a different journey, too.
The problem is it's not that easy to predict and choose wisely, we only have a hindsight to reflect on the actual journey when it's done.

I too find this all a bit mind-boggling. My dd didn't know her alphabet at 3, wasn't toilet trained (which has nothing to do with intelligence by the way and it is illegal to refuse a child a place at nursery because of it), she didn't sit much either. At 3 at kindergarten she wasn't doing presentations but was organising her peers to build dens and do puppet shows. She wasn't writing but was building boats and floating it down a stream and cooking over a bonfire. She learnt about including the severely disabled children in her play and making them feel wanted and adjusting expectations for ability. They spent most of each day outside. She started school, at five and a half, unable to read but by the end of her first year at school she was the most advanced reader in the class and the best a maths and this is a state school with a very bright, very international (ex pats) cohort. I don't get this hot housing toddlers.

I would also say that you don't get an understanding of working in academia just by getting a PhD - that is just a basic training in research.

well yes of course it is the journey.

But if you are predicting your 3 year old child's journey in education based on a comparison with his/her clearly highly gifted older sibling's performance at that age then you are failing your child. you need to look clearly at this particular child and not have the point of comparison of the older sibling in your head.

And deciding this child is the least gifted based on language and math performance at age 3 is equally baffling. Presumably you know that there are areas of giftedness or aptitude that might not be apparent at age 3?

The math genius might struggle to work with others. The ordinary 3 year old might be the absolute best at gluing teams together and getting results. It is all a continuum.

We made it a priority to give our children the best education we could afford. We did - we have been in 4 different private schools and one state one. it worked for us. But I didn't predict any of their interests age 3. If I did, I might have been wrong.

All those things are very common in areas like London where you often need to live within 200m of a scool to get in and there are large black holes with no local school.

And if the whole business of 11+ wasn't so horrendously stressful for children.

I'm sure it would be in your house, OP, if you are this stressed about your child's education at 3 years