School won't keep our place - what to do?

[VitAL]

Hi all,
I'm really stuck with a difficult dilemma and would appreciate any thoughts. DC is currently at a very academic pre-prep, we chose it precisely for their leavers' destinations, they send a lot of children to three top selective indies high on our list and some pupils to a couple more selective schools. DC is happy there, but I want to give 4+ a go. I feel I would really regret if I don't, would be thinking all the time about opportunities lost and it's a bit easier to get in at 4+ than 7+. I wouldn't say DC is exceptionally academic at 3.5 but strong-willed (sometimes to the extent of being bossy with even older children), emotionally mature and disciplined/co-operative so I think could do quite well at 4+.

The problem is our school won't keep our place for Reception if they find out we're sitting 4+ and I think they easily can as it has very good links with most of the schools on our list. I have actually sent applications to two schools before I knew about our school's policy (it's not an official policy AFAIK but people talk). I've no idea if they actually ask for references and reports at 4+. I'm still thinking about applying to at least three more schools. I guess (I'm not 100% sure) I could leave the current school's details blank on application forms but I feel bad about it TBH.

If we get kicked out of the current school we might end up with no place at all. We might possibly get a last minute place at a non-selective non-academic indie, but that would mean extra money on tuition for 7+ with less chances and much more uncertainty as we plan to buy a house close to the school if DC gets in at 4+, if not that would be another 3-4 years in limbo.

I'm at a loss what to do and so stressed about the whole situation that I lost sleep. Should I abandon the whole idea and wait until 7+?Please help, I really need to make up my mind.

OP you seem over defensive. Its common on here that what starts as a simple question about X moves onto wider issues. I think many are shocked/surprised/interested in the idea of a 3.5 year old being a year or more "further ahead" than his contempories and your belief that this necessary to get into a highly selective senior school. This I suspect is not the experience of many.
If I was you Id read think about and enjoy the comments, I haven't read the whole thread don't think anyone is being particularly unkind and you don't have to take any of it on board.

It isn't this, in general. It is about having different values in life, believing that different things are important.
Not everyone here is like that, of course. And I don't have a problem with different values at all - others in the thread seems to have this problem, though :) I don't mind this either, I'm old enough and I worked a lot with people, I now how it usually goes.

However, I do not believe that marginal academic gains at very young ages - of the sort made by pushing children through academic selection, or obsessing about the 'absolutely best schools' - are necessary, or sufficient, for eventual academic success or long term outcomes.
I tend to agree with this in general, but I live in my particular situation.

I do believe that some by-products of marginal academic gains are actively harmful, in terms of labelling children, causing additional stress and shutting down 'wider aspects' of social and extra-curricular education.

Again, a lot of truth in this, but there is also another truth: middle class children who go into mediocre schools are often being extensively tutored and as a result don't have spare time and rest AT ALL. They spend 8 hours at school doing nothing, then spend another few hours catching up with their tutors, often in many subjects. I;ve seen it a lot around here and I don't want to waste time like that, it's better to home school than this. Academic school keeps them busy enough for 7-8 most productive hours of the day, then you can go to the park with them, play, enjoy your family time in the evening.

"What does being exceptionally bright matter/help/difference either."
The two brightest adults I ever met (one did Oxbridge post A levels at 15) were totally dysfunctional and or unhappy. Yes both have "successful" careers in that the are both earning a good income and in very high status occupations, but neither are popular with their work colleagues ( one was positively loathed by all) and are also struggling to form any kind of relationship outside of work. Im not saying that this is aways the case but even if being exceptionally bright does mean your more likely to have successful career (I don't actually empirically know if it does) it does not necessarily = happy and well adjusted.

@happygardening, you do realise, don't you, that what is common for people who send children boarding at 7 is not quite so common for maybe 95% of the population? Or even 99%

It was nice reading your musings on how a 'common' boarding prep is just enough for a child's happiness and success :)

Are you in a parallel universe too?

We're not talking about bright children though. We're talking about intensive education of presumably fairly average kids

"but I live in my particular situation."
What situations is this? London parenting/schools? Is this problem local to where you live maybe? Perhaps your local pre preps promote this "get ahead" ethos and Chinese whispers amongst parents means its escalating to an almost ridiculous level? We've friends south of the river I don't get the impression they believe that getting your DC 1-2 yrs further ahead necessarily guarantees success at highly selective senior schools.

I have a possibly 2e(not diagnosed) ds, and what I want to do for him is to make his life as easy as possible. Yes, he has a gift in certain subject, but I try hard to make him more rounded. I don't want him to grow up to be a socially awkward person.
You may be torturing him. For your own NT's notion of social acceptance.
Think about it.
And I'm not being cynical or mean.

ViTAL you clearly don't appreciate it when others give their opinions on the decisions you make about you're children's education yet you have just suggested that another poster may be torturing their child

I'm under no illusions, few send their DC's too prep I haven't once said its a "common" occurrence in fact I usually state the complete opposite. Nor have I said its just enough for "happiness and success" in fact I think you'll find that I primarily talked about the early years up to 5/6 as a time when I don't believe children need to be pushed to achieve/get ahead academically to be successful in the competitive round of high achieving senior school applications and they certainly dont need the pressure to of getting ahead.

OP, I think you are greatly overestimating the 'hypocrisy' of posters who are opposed to intensive hothousing and selection. I am a middle class London parent whose kids go to local community schools; neither has ever been tutored. And that is normal in my very middle class area.

*What does being ahead achieve? Interesting.
What does being exceptionally bright matter/help/difference either.

I'm quite interested. Do you really think it makes that much difference?*

Difficult questions if you were addressing me, Oblomov17
I would say it does make a difference, but rather in terms of struggle as the world is not made for us, it's made for the majority, we do not fit anywhere.
It can also mean, if you are lucky enough to find your niche, that you will be working on breakthrough things (not necessarily science). There was a Nobel laureate in my family (distant relation on my father's side, and I was never close with the guy as he died when I was too young), quirky personality who did a lot in science and, surprisingly, politics. I'd say perhaps he made some difference for Western civilisation.
We consider our family mediocre by comparison.

" middle class children who go into mediocre schools are often being extensively tutored and as a result don't have spare time and rest AT ALL. They spend 8 hours at school doing nothing, then spend another few hours catching up with their tutors, often in many subjects."

I have, as I say, genuinely never encountered this, across my DC's school and those of their friends, and my DC are of an age where this might be happening.

I know many children who do 10+ hours of high quality extra-curricular activities each week, but none at all who are tutored. They go on to their desired destinations - dance college, music conservatoire, a mixture of good universities based on their interests and aptitudes.

but there is also another truth: middle class children who go into mediocre schools are often being extensively tutored and as a result don't have spare time and rest AT ALL. They spend 8 hours at school doing nothing, then spend another few hours catching up with their tutors, often in many subjects

Of course, silly me. My DS got his A* and As by doing nothing all day and then not being tutored and spending most weekends going out and having fun. Plenty of time for him to work when he needed to, rest when he needed to and still come out with top grades.

Nice talking with you all but Easter break is over and I must be off to work. Besides, as I said, guilty pleasures come at a cost and this nice little thread will cost me a few days of recovery.
Contrary to the latecomers' opinions, I do feel there is a lot to think about in many posters' perspectives. Thank you for sharing!

I am a torturer!

I have only skim read the thread, so apologies if this has been said, but it is often far more difficult to get into a school at 4+ than 7+ or 11+ in terms of the number of offers v number of applicants. I know at Alleyn's that it is by far the highest ratio at 4+ so might be worth sticking with your super pre-prep and trying a school which goes to 18 later on.

As your DS2 is the only NT member of the family, as I understand it, would it be useful to seek advice from others - NT parents or NT teachers or perhaps a neutral education advisor - about his education?

When DS had many autistic traits (he actually had paralysing anxiety) I sought educational advice from those who could speak from the viewpoint of someone with ASD, and I wonder whether it might usefully work in reverse?

Obviously the NT / ASD aspect of this only came out as the thread went on, so some of the earlier comments will not have been on this basis.

VirAL I think our definitions of 'severely disabled' are somewhat different. I don't think you even know what I meant by it.

Do you genuinely believe a 17 year old requiring residential care is 'more or less your situation'?

Wow

Coming back to your original question....

If your DC is the sort of child who would be a good fit for the very academic school, then don't you think that they will be able to get in at 7+, especially given the preparation you believe the current school will give them? In which case, if you are and your DC are currently happy, why change things? It seems rather high risk to mess with a currently good situation.

I think the idea that you would lose your current place if you applied to to other schools is outrageous, especially if it is not official policy but more underhand. If you have evidence that it is true then I would be tempted to call them out on it (though admittedly that might come at too high a personal cost)

But FWIW, I was somewhat taken aback by

Both me and DH had US scholarships, went to top-tier unis, I have PhD in STEM subject, left academia for industry so have experience of both, DH is ex-Big-4, top-3 MBA, 8 languages though never studied linguistic subjects at uni, DC1 has maths olympiad awards without any preparation whatsoever, no prep for grammar entrance either, and we are pretty ordinary in our families. I don't think it's terribly wrong for us to look at academic schools

I'm Oxford, McKinsey, Stanford Econ PhD. Now an Oxbridge Prof. DH similar, though he is the one with the 6 languages. It doesn't follow at all that we think as strategically as you about winning places at the right academic schools at the right time. As it happens both children are at so-called super-selectives, but we would have been very happy with the local comps and very nearly took that route, even after getting the places. No tutoring, no coaching, 4+, 7+ etc wouldn't have crossed our mind. Or private education at all for that matter, unless our children had clear problems in the state sector.

I think your world and mindset is just too far away from the majority on here for you to get any useful advice.

@irregularregular I presume being an Oxbridge prof you live in Oxbridge bubble?
Your world is too far away from the majority on here :)

@Devilishpyjamas Being in bottom 2% in motor abilities does qualify as severe disability I'm afraid and requires a lot of care and support, physically and psychologically.

You're not the only person in the world in this boat.

But then of course, what do I know!