Skipping a year at primary: is it really so bad? Is it worse than NOT skipping?

[Arkadia]

Hi all,

I have been reviewing some threads, here and elsewhere, on the above subject and the opinion seems to be generally negative. However I cannot see why doing otherwise, i.e. NOT skipping a year, would be better.

In a nutshell, DD is currently in a composite 1-2 class. She was put in that class on the advice of the nursery because they felt she needed extra challenges to keep her interested. At nursery she was singularly unengaged and she failed to make any meaningful connection with either children or staff (not that she was unhappy at the idea of going, buy just uninterested).
We were a bit apprehensive at the idea of starting school because, although she seemed OK academically, she was rather withdrawn from an emotional point of view. However, after talking to the headteacher we went for the composite class and waited - note, in our case going for the composite class was against school policy because it is usually reserved for older P1s and younger P2s, but DD is a younger P1 being born at the end of October (we are in Scotland), so the headteacher made an exception.

I am happy to say that DD is much happier in the school environment and she is actually much more engaged both with the teachers and the pupils. So far so good :)
Interestingly, AFAIK she has bonded only with the P2s in her class. The P1s are much more in the background in what she tells us.
Work wise she has been doing both the P1 and he P2 work and (for what it is worth), I would expect her to be top of the P2 in the 3 Rs.

Now, next year I think it would be best of her to go to the P2-3 composite class, but that is the last one on offer. At this moment in time, to go to a P2 would be like repeating a year and it seems meaningless to me. If she goes to the P2-3 she will stay with her friends and the year after she can go straight to P4, again, with most of her friends - note that at our school they sometime mix the pupils from one year to the next.

I have read all the objections stated in other threads which in a nutshell say that problems may arise in the future when the child grows up (puberty, starting to drive, being unable to be out till late, etc.). However, I wonder, is it worth worrying about something that may or may not happen when the alternative now is certainly not great? To have her repeat a year now would cut her off from the environment she has known at school and she would have to redo the work she has already done with ease (I doubt the teacher would be able/willing to set a different workload for her); I am bored only thinking about it... :)

OK, she may still need to sprint further ahead academically (at home she is doing what her P3 sister is doing anyway...), but let's think about one thing a time.

Any ideas?

What are jackdaws.

The worst are the mid to upper ranged long books that are 80 or so pages and last for days!

Well the school reading books could be more interesting, but I think they are developed using an increasing amount of the required vocabulary, based on the most occurring words I think. They have a specific purpose that reading David Walliams or the classics doesn't achieve for a lot of children, who will skip words that they don't understand without asking about them as they can still get most of the story.

The school books will have lessons attached to check comprehension and spelling etc etc which is difficult to do when all the children are reading different books.

Youngest dd's school didn't have a reading scheme at all, the dc read the books from the library which were all graded and colour coded. She loved books and reading for her was always something she enjoyed most probably because she never experienced the tedium of the ORT scheme.

I wonder... why are the school reading books soooooo dull?
Because they have to encorporate specific word, punctuation and grammar patterns. They write a story around that prescription. It makes sure all bases are covered in a way that a free-flowing author may not.

Maths homework isn't as fun as board games either FYI

I have come across many beautiful books suitable for kids that age (give or take), but I wonder why the school doesn't promote them

Most schools do. In separate ways/other topics. They're not reader books though.

[More OT]
Quartz2208: see a few posts above.

WankersHacksandThieves: indeed, but if they are dull they become a chore. I like reading aloud and be read to but if I fall asleep half way... and most of all, if DD doesn't fell invested in reading them and SHE feels they are a chore...
[/OT]

TinselTwins: personally I find maths (homework) great fun :) (provided there is variety and not always the same stuff)

Tinsel
"Because they have to encorporate specific word, punctuation and grammar patterns. They write a story around that prescription. It makes sure all bases are covered in a way that a free-flowing author may not".

I think all that was covered in guided reading at dd's school tbh. The school didn't listen to individual children read either as a matter of routine. Those needing extra support did programmes such as Bradford better reading but dd was never listened to routinely in school just assessed half termly or so to see whether she needed to move up a colour on the library books. Children had free choice within their colour and could bring home as many books as they wanted.

WankersHacksandThieves: indeed, but if they are dull they become a chore. I like reading aloud and be read to but if I fall asleep half way... and most of all, if DD doesn't fell invested in reading them and SHE feels they are a chore...

As long as she has other books that she enjoys reading, I really don't see what the issue is. If she needs to read the book for other work in class then she just has to learn to suck it up and learn that not everything can be fun/stimulating/your favourite, if she isn't using them for other work in school then don't read them.

If she has to read them, she will learn that sometimes there are things you just have to do if nothing else.

I really think you are making too much of all this, life isn't all about academics and your daughter does sound bright but not prodigious.

The school could easily manage her advanced reading with moving her a year and she may not be that advanced for that long anyway, it feels like she has all sorts of other lessons to learn though that she can learn just as well within the class with her peers.

The school really can't win here. If they set homework your DD can do in one night what they want to do over 15 weeks. If they set a reading book that has structure and has been proven to work it is dull and a bore. They aren't stretching your DD in class, you seen to be focussed on what other children are going in P2 without acknowledging that there is not a fixed/set curriculum, adamant that if your DD moves into the P2 that she will be repeating a year when she won't. You like this years teacher but are concerned that you might not like next years - when this is going to be the reality for all of your child's school career.

When people mention the disadvantaged of being out of year group in terms of social acceptance and maturity that is picked up as not being able to drink when others are drinking, but the message was meant to be about going to the same places as her friends (many teenagers don't drink but still want to get into the same clubs/parties as their friends). They will drop her like a stone, it is unlikely that they will change their social plans to accommodate the odd one out. This is the reality of teenage life. No acknowledgement of the potential disadvantages that may result from your DD not being able to do the same extra curricular activities as her friends if she is moved ahead, many activities are age driven whether you want them to be or not. No acknowledgement that creating a situation where your DD will be up to 2 years younger than her class mates will quite likely see her increasingly isolated within her class as they move into and through high school.

A few posters have posted about not understanding the British angst about moving up a year. The point is that in Scotland at this point in time it is very unusual and like it or not making your child stand out is inviting her to be a target for the aspects of school life that we wish didn't exist but in reality do.

There is a huge amount that you can do to enrich your DDs learning and help her to grow and flourish within her actual peer group. The issue here is of your own making. Ask the school what they are doing to extend her learning and fit in and that's it, there doesn't need to be a grand plan. If you hate the Jackdaws books just tell the school that you will be reading from your own library, as long as she is reading then that's what they will care about. There are loads of on-line maths programmes that can be accessed easily. Learn an instrument or a language.

If you are disappointed in primary school then the holding pattern for S1 to S3 will quite probably tip you over the edge.

Added to what celtie says, also consider when she wants to do a sport but can't as she is in the wrong age group to play with her year and god forbid she wants to do Duke of Edinburgh with school as she'll never be able to so it with her classmates either.

Personally I think the school haven't said anything about her moving up a year, at most they'll do what other schools do and have cross year reading groups and maths groups where children in adjacent years move to different rooms to do their reading and maths with others of a similar level.

A lot of teachers teach composite classes so are perfectly able to teach children of differing academic progress, add into that non deferred/deferred kids and the age differential in a composite class can be very large. I don't believe any teacher or headteacher has suggested that your child move up a year given all the circumstances.

There are parents on this thread with more exceptional children than mine and it's never been suggested to any of them that moving would bea good thing to do.

I'm wondering if part of Her difficulties with her peers is having an older sister and being used to older girls? It actually sounds like her interaction and comfort with older girls feeds that gap her sister has filled at home for her and isn't good thing socially at all. As others have said- older girls will scaffold your daughters less mature social interactions- making allowances for her and so she won't actually be challenged in her social interactions in an older class- the opposite will happen which will in fact hold her back.
You'd be doing her a huge disservice by requesting she miss a year. Please don't.
And forget about the flipping reading books it really doesn't matter. Really. You are coming across as socially inept yourself by focussing on your very specific and not very relevant worry whilst ignoring the real and relevant concerns of other posters.

I have had three children go through a Primary which uses Chip, Kipper and fecking Biff and haven't a clue what "level" the books were. Neither do the kids. There is clearly a progression through the very simple starter books into the more detailed ones and then onto books which don't feature the characters, but I've never even noticed whether they are coloured or named in level.

My eldest (March birthday) started school at 5.5 reading fluently. He was on Beast Quest, Jack Stalwart and Roald Dahl at home, and "Mum was cross" at school. School quickly picked up that he could read. We agreed - in conjunction with the school and after discussion - that he would continue to read the same as the top group even though the books were too easy, and they would give him non-fiction books from a different reading scheme too. I didn't want him separated out as "special". By the end of P2, the gap had narrowed considerably between his level and the rest of hte able readers.

Same with maths - he's been consistently in the top group and still is in top sets at secondary.

Maths and reading is a tiny bit of what they do at Primary though. As someone upthread told you, when they're doing topic work, art, music, computing and everything else she is still going to be learning the same skills as everyone else. An able child is going to be expected to write using adjectives or adverbs, put more detail into research, interpret and understand text rather than just read the words.

You also seem to think that all of P1 or P2 are working at the same level and your child is different. EVERY CLASS will have a mix of abilities. Teachers will have identified children's abilities and will group them accordingly. Some will struggle and need extra support, the able children will be stretched and challenged. This is not rocket science and teachers do it all of the time. That's their job.

Focusing on book banding alone is not an indication of anything, it's a tiny part of what is happening in class. And as for the friendships with older girls, there is no reason why that can;t still happen through outside school activities.

I don't think it would be unusual to see quite a lot of children in a P2/Y1 class reading at that sort of level, OP. Obviously, there would be children on lower levels too, and I'd expect the most able readers to be reading books that were considerably more challenging. Certainly, they fall within the normal range of achievement at that age, and a decent teacher should be able to cater for that range quite effectively.

My dd was more of an outlier academically - still is - and we were given the option of skipping a year when she was very young, but we concluded that it would be pointless as she would still be ahead academically anyway, and we didn't think it was desirable to separate her from her peers. She is young in her year anyway, so there would have been a significant age gap had she moved. I must say that her primary school was extremely good at differentiating work, and she has had lots of opportunities socially as well - luckily, she never struggled socially and seeks able to form friendships with children who are both older and younger than she is. She has had plenty of chances to develop confidence and leadership skills too, as she tends to get picked for stuff by the teachers/elected for stuff by her peers - not sure that this would have happened if she had moved up a year.

In your situation, it sounds like your dd is a good learner, which is great. Tell the school that you are keen to see them providing appropriate differentiation, by all means, and keep an eye on it to ensure that it's happening. In the meantime, maybe have a think about how you can help your dd develop more on the emotional and social side of things, as it sounds like this doesn't come to her as easily.

I do know one current child in Scotland who has skipped a year (though a little later in the school process).

As an indication of 'level of giftedness' needed for this decision to be taken, this child attended the Maths lessons for children 5-6 years older for the first year of secondary, then had complicated arrangements to access university-level Maths and work independently.

Skipping 2 years (so joining the Y3 when in Y1) was suggested for DS when he was deeply unhappy at school. He was well up with the level required - fell off the end of the OUP reading scheme just after his 5th birthday, could add and subtract negative numbers while still in reception - a bit younger than P1. Instead, we moved school to one which simply had more able children and managed their learning much better, and he stayed in his own year group. best decision.

I missed the first year of secondary, and remained top of the year above. Academically it was absolutely the right thing to do - like a previous poster, I was awarded an Oxbridge place at 16, early in what is now Y13 - but I took a year out to be 18 before starting university.

OP, I think you said that your first language isn't WEnglish, and so i wonder whether you were educated in a system where there was a great empahsis on a class 'keeping in step', 'covering exactly the same curriculum as everyone else in the class'? You seem to have an image that there is 'a P2 curriculum' that everyone receives in exactly the same way and which would simply be 'repeated' if she is in a P2 class next year? That really isn't how primary education works, as other posters have already explained to you. Additionally, in schools with composite classes, very great attention is paid to planning for progression of children who may be in classes with different mixes. For example, there may be a rolling programme of topics so that children don't repeat the same one twice. There will also be cross-class planning so that the learning of children in single year and composite classes, but in the same year group, is co-ordinated.

I am still a fan of skipping or rapid advance. Rapid advance is an American concept where 10-20% of the student body does one in middle school rather than two, or two years in three. As someone who didn't get differentiated learning and was left to her own ends often, I can see being moved up a year would offer more challenges. My sister skipped second grade, and was very well adjusted, playing sports and everything. I can't see how teachers manage with a large range of ability in one class, nor comprehend how children with poor literacy and numeracy skills can tackle a secondary curriculum.
Sports is a very small part of life. Worrying about how big your child will be when compared to classmates is nonsense. I was tiny all my life, and am 5'1" as an adult.

My dh skipped a year and went to university at 16. He was immature and messed around. Actually the messing around started towards the end of secondary where he went from being top of this year to middle. I think he never truly realised his potential.

I think there is a big difference in skipping a grade when 10 to 20% do on a regular basis vs. a system where it is very rare and in this case it would be one child. In addition you need to consider that in the Scottish system parents typically hold back their young in the year children so that they become the oldest. Assuming even distribution of birth dates 15-20% of a class would have been deferred. It would also be very unusual to hold a child back from moving to secondary regardless of their numeracy / literacy skills. The secondary school would be expected to help that child access the curriculum at a level appropriate for them.

It sounds to me as though the school are a bit rubbish! You say you doubt they can differentiate work and have concerns over who the teacher will be. Could you move her to a better school or is that very difficult?

I think your DD sounds like she has a very normal ability for a child of P1 age, i.e. her reading ability falls between the normal range of a child who reads short novels and a child still trying to read d-o-g. I think a good school / teacher should be able to accommodate within these ranges and the corresponding ability range in maths without a problem.

(In our English Year 1 class of about 16 kids we had a handful still learning three letter words and 3-4 on the top table with a reading age of 11-12 or so. According to the curriculum that is a range of 7 academic years!!)