Skipping a year at primary: is it really so bad? Is it worse than NOT skipping?

[Arkadia]

Hi all,

I have been reviewing some threads, here and elsewhere, on the above subject and the opinion seems to be generally negative. However I cannot see why doing otherwise, i.e. NOT skipping a year, would be better.

In a nutshell, DD is currently in a composite 1-2 class. She was put in that class on the advice of the nursery because they felt she needed extra challenges to keep her interested. At nursery she was singularly unengaged and she failed to make any meaningful connection with either children or staff (not that she was unhappy at the idea of going, buy just uninterested).
We were a bit apprehensive at the idea of starting school because, although she seemed OK academically, she was rather withdrawn from an emotional point of view. However, after talking to the headteacher we went for the composite class and waited - note, in our case going for the composite class was against school policy because it is usually reserved for older P1s and younger P2s, but DD is a younger P1 being born at the end of October (we are in Scotland), so the headteacher made an exception.

I am happy to say that DD is much happier in the school environment and she is actually much more engaged both with the teachers and the pupils. So far so good :)
Interestingly, AFAIK she has bonded only with the P2s in her class. The P1s are much more in the background in what she tells us.
Work wise she has been doing both the P1 and he P2 work and (for what it is worth), I would expect her to be top of the P2 in the 3 Rs.

Now, next year I think it would be best of her to go to the P2-3 composite class, but that is the last one on offer. At this moment in time, to go to a P2 would be like repeating a year and it seems meaningless to me. If she goes to the P2-3 she will stay with her friends and the year after she can go straight to P4, again, with most of her friends - note that at our school they sometime mix the pupils from one year to the next.

I have read all the objections stated in other threads which in a nutshell say that problems may arise in the future when the child grows up (puberty, starting to drive, being unable to be out till late, etc.). However, I wonder, is it worth worrying about something that may or may not happen when the alternative now is certainly not great? To have her repeat a year now would cut her off from the environment she has known at school and she would have to redo the work she has already done with ease (I doubt the teacher would be able/willing to set a different workload for her); I am bored only thinking about it... :)

OK, she may still need to sprint further ahead academically (at home she is doing what her P3 sister is doing anyway...), but let's think about one thing a time.

Any ideas?

OP obviously you and the teacher are best placed to make this decision. One further input for you to consider (or not) is the advice we got from my daughter's headmistress when she was in reception. We were movign so dd needed to move schools. The receiving school suggested moving her up a year. She was (is) able and is also the oldest tin the year as a September baby. The headmistress of the original school counselled strongly against it on the same basis you've seen here - it's hard to really enjoy life when you aren't able to keep up what your peers socially, but also that there's a real difference in your ability to empathise with Cathy in withering heights, or to get to grips with donne's emotions when you are only 14/15 and taking GCSEs - she felt that Dd wouldn't actually be able to realise her full potential if moved ahead.

We didn't skip her a year and are very pleased to have left her in an age-appropriate group, workign with her teachers to make sure the work she does is appropriate for her ability.

I am through the other end of this. My son was very bored and disruptive in P5 and we thought of skipping a year.
We were advised against it by a wise and experienced teacher. He went for out of school tuition and she advised breadth rather than moving a year. She suggested music or learning a foreign language.
We left him in his year group and I am so glad I did. During teenage years he was small with a late growth spurt and this would have been worse in a higher year group.
Out of school activities would also mean that your daughter could mix with different age groups e.g. In an orchestra, in a sport.
All worked out well but his lifelong friends are from university rather than school.
At his university interview they asked why he was so "young" . This was because he was 17 rather than 18 . Just the Scottish system.

When my DD was at preschool, for the first year she was only interested in the older children. She has an autumn birthday so missed out on going up to school with them by a matter of weeks.

When they first left, she was a bit lost for a little while. Then when she started to mix more with the younger ones, she discovered that she actually really enjoyed being with them. Not only had they become a little more mature in that intervening year, but she no longer had the option of only playing with the older ones.

You might find that with the current P2s in a different class, your DD will be more willing to mix with the current P1s.

DD is now 6yrs old and is given work that is at an appropriate level for her ability. It's true that the G&T boards have a lot of posts about a lack of differentiation in school but that's because people are more likely to post if there is a problem.

BertPuttocks, out of interest, can you give me an example of the kind of work you DD is being given? She is now in P2 I take it.

We're in England so DD is in Yr1 (age 5 - 6)

In literacy, for example, the majority of her class are working on how to write sentences correctly with capital letters and full stops. DD writes well so has moved on to other punctuation (question marks, exclamation marks, commas, apostrophes etc).

She has a very good memory for spellings and so can already spell the words that she would normally be learning over the next few years. She gets her own lists to learn which are based on the actual rules of spelling so that she will also be able to spell words that she hasn't encountered before.

It's all done in a way that means that she never feels like the odd one out or different in any way.

I think it's depend on different child and situation. In this case, OP's DD has already made the friends in P2, I can see the benefit of her staying with her friends, and move up with them.

The main concern is the development of child's emotion and physical growth. I think the trouble normally start at secondary school level, especially with boys, there are a big gap for a 1 year development.

In my experience going up a year doesn't happen - used to in Scotland but not now.

Composite classes are not in themselves a problem - my dd1 was in 4 out of her 7 primary years, one of which was a p1-7 class (small rural village school), also p2 (2-3), p6 (6-7) and p7 (6-7). I hasn't harmed her socially (she's 17 today!) and she just got A's in 4/5 of her higher prelims.

As a secondary teacher I've seen children very young for their year (undeferred jan/feb birthdays) struggle (compared to their peers) in secondary transition. Thats anecdotal, though!

Hope you can work this out best for your dd. The school should be looking to stretch her without needing to move her up a year.

I went through school a year ahead, my sister was 2 years ahead. Academically it was fine, socially a disaster and it caught up with us both at university - both dropped out (I went back but my sibling never did).

Other siblings went through in correct year group and both were Autumn birthdays so among the oldest in their year groups. They didn't do as well academically then, but had a much easier time and really enjoyed university.

Do not underestimate how much damage is done to self-esteem, job opportunities etc when you have a complete breakdown and have to take years out in your late teens. Far worse than being a bit of a fish out of water in your early years of school.

No way would I ever let my own child be out of year. We went as far as to deliberately try to have a spring baby to avoid any oldest/youngest in the year scenarios.

I skipped a year at school and it was fine other than I was always 'short'! I am not much taller than my school friends! I took a year out before university as I felt too young to go.

My parents considered moving me up a year at primary - I learned to read very young - but decided against it for social reasons as I was a shy child. So glad they did. All through primary I was given extra work to stretch me, could do creative writing and maths games etc while the rest of the class worked through the text books. I also learned an instrument and was allowed to practice for 30mins a day during class time. I never felt weird or left out and loved primary school and learning. At secondary (grammar) there were loads of bright kids and the work was at my level anyway. I know someone else who skipped a year at primary and then had a gap year between primary and secondary learning French in France before going to secondary at the "right time". At puberty it becomes especially important to be the social equal of your peer group. I don't think you should encourage skipping a year if you can avoid it.

I have been wondering, given that relatively few people have the "problem" of potentially skipping a year, how come there are so many different people talking about it in this thread?

In any case, I really don't understand why so many times people say that the key factor in deciding whether or not to do it is the drinking and clubbing age. That to me is simply ludicrous (and demeaning to all). I can understand that kids at 16-17 don't know what to do with their lives (and the same applies at 18-19, etc.) and even more so that at such young age they might not be able to get the most out of university education or feel homesick, but that is not the same as saying that since you cannot get plastered at freshers' week, then you shouldn't be going. (I was reading another thread on the Guardian website where the comments were mostly along this vein). Note: I did not do my first degree in the UK, so getting plastered at the first available opportunity was never on the agenda.

In any case, reading the replies here, the question I am now posing myself is: what is school supposed to achieve? Why are our kids going to school? What are they supposed to get out of it?
Reading harrietm87's message (but not exclusively... I mention her (?) message because it is the latest) it seems that school is simply a filler. You go there pretty much to pass the time waiting for you to grow up. The development of academic abilities seems to be the last of everybody's concerns.
(BTW, harrietm87, you were lucky because you had a grammar in your area. Our only option would probably be to go to the Hutchison in Glasgow, but for that we would have to sell the house and move... In any case, our secondary is not rated too badly, but it is on a different level nevertheless).

Going back to the original post and DD, after giving this some thought I have come to realize that skipping a grade perhaps wouldn't solve the underlying "problem" because PERHAPS she could find herself in a similar situation next year even if she is at P3 (maybe going through the year sprinting ahead again). So, what needs to be addressed is the POTENTIAL discrepancy between academic abilities and emotional development.
However I wouldn't want her to grow up with the idea that all you have to do at school is turning up to get good/top grades as that will NOT be helpful later in life (in fairness I was a bit like that when I was at school, so I know... ).

To give you an example, her teacher yesterday gave her a new booklet with "word problems". Actually the booklet, though hand made, is quite good (but my expectations are VERY low :) ) and is made of 15 pages with 6 questions per page comprising in each page a sum, a take away, read the time, days of the week, find the missing number in a series, and geometrical figures. Judging from past experiences that should last for 15 weeks (i.e. till the end of the year), but DD could do it all pretty much in 15 mins - she did the first page yesterday in no time. Actually I think that MOST P2 children could do it all in about 15 mins, so that brings me to my previous point... what is the school for and how can it actually stretch and keep interested a child without putting it off? But what is the point of giving any child the same kind of work for 15 weeks? (Don't get me wrong, I think going through the booklet is a worthwhile exercise, but in no more than 1-2 sittings, than if there are problems with some of the questions we can iron them out. The problems are not of increasing difficulty, just slightly different.).

I dread the conversation we would have to have next year with the new teacher (just as much as they dread talking to me, I am sure... :) )

Anyway, sorry if I am being incoherent... ;)

arkadia I don't think school is a filler - it is a preparation for life. The social skills you learn can be as important as academic ones. A bright child can be supported academically in the right year for their age (and that is absolutely important) but it is very difficult for them to be supported socially (obviously you can be given extra work that is interesting and stretching, but teachers cannot force friendships).

Kids can be cruel and "fitting in" is important, however much we might wish otherwise. I remember feeling very left out when friends started their periods before I did for example. It's much more than drinking/clubbing (and starts much younger). Also your child's happiness day to day is much more likely to depend on their friendships than their test results. I just wouldn't wish the risk of struggling socially on a child when there's no reason their learning shouldn't be accommodated. Why do you think your daughter needs to skip a year in order to do well academically?

Fwiw there was a maths genius in my year at secondary school (now a Cambridge professor) and he hadn't skipped a year. He went to A level maths classes from age 11 but did the rest of his subjects with us. It's possible provided the school does their job.

We are in this situation but at secondary so I will come to you from a future perspective. We have a year 9 who is one of a handful of year 9 in a year ten year group. Partly it is fantastic, academically she has been pushed and has really come on, socially she has for the first time made friends (similar issue with engaging with the same age children).

However we have to decide soon if she is going into year 11.
If she doesn't then she will lose her friends at lunch time and break as the times are different.

If she does then she has to face GCSE a year early. She is doing okay, she will probably get A - C in everything but at the same time she would probably get A - Bs if she went into her correct age group.

The other complication is dd is in a new school system where she knows none of the upcoming year 10s in September and the year 9 children are in a different building so socially it will be very difficult for her.

Not read through all, but 2 of my niecess skipped a primary school year. No problem at all. Both are now in their 20s, well adjusted, lovely girls.
I know the youngest never really liked primary school, and took long weeks of "sick leave" to do other things.

Just to add, I agree that just being very good academically is no reason to move up, even for a " maths genius". But some are really bright and more socially/emotionally mature as well and get on better with slightly older peers.

School should be a balance of learning, having fun and socialising and about becoming a grown up. Socialising and belonging and feeling part of a group is a vital part of navigating being a teenager and she is a factor in that. It disappears in adulthood my friends have a 20 year age range but teenagers are much more peer focused on age.

So yes it seems like you have to overcome the discrepancy between emotional social and academic maturity. My dd has always been academically advanced but her emotional and social development has taken time.

Are you sure she is in the right primary school are there others nearby I wonder whether that is the issue not her year group.

How old is she

harrietm87: school is preparation for life? Is it really? The overriding priority is to have children grouped according to their birth year; nothing else matters. But in real life it is never like that. You mingle with people with whom you have a connection, which usually means a common interest, not people who happened to be born when you were.
Mind you, I don't have an alternative in mind, but at the same time I doubt that school is like an apprenticeship for your life to come. Pretty much you have to make the most of it or, if you like, the best of an imperfect situation.

As I said in the messages, with regards to DD2 we have nothing set in stone. I believe we will wait for the school to come up with a meaningful path forward - they are the experts after all - and we'll take it from there.

Still this conversation for me has been useful on many levels. If anything it has made me feel even more unhappy about DD1 (now in P3) and the way things are going for her.

Gosh, I AM the parent from hell :D :D

I have three children, a bright 12 year old who is young in his year, socially, he has struggled. He can have amazing conversations with adults but a lot of what goes on with his peers passes him by. If I could have had the chance to have him in a lower year, I think it would have benefited him even though academically he is too of his year.

My 10 year old is old in her year but very small for her age. She is emotionally intelligent, bright but struggles with her peers as they are not on her level. She does form bonds and have friends but the difference between her and her class mates is obvious.

I got it right with number three, average age in his year, fits in perfectly!!

Being young in the year has many disadvantages, sport, non academic interests, size etc. You and the school can support her intellectually outside of the standard school work. The social side is less easy.

Drivingmadness, thanks ;)

Quartz2208, she is now 5 years and 4 months and she is very much a 5 year old :)
the school is considered good (people go through hoops and jumps in order to get in). We could have gone to another good primary nearby, but I don't know whether that is going to be any better.
One of the problems, common to all schools, is the yearly teacher lottery... who are you going to get? Who knows. I feel DD1 (P3) has been hard done by for several reasons and while DD2 this year has been lucky what will happen next year?

anotherdayanothersquabble, so you agree with what I said above.. school is a filler and the one important thing is that you get along with your "age appropriate peers". When does happen, everything is honky dory but if for whatever reason you don't...

While writing my reply and reading your latest comments I was thinking about why is the social issue such a problem as life is not like that. .. well because school does group children by age, those that stick out, really do stick out. I know lots of home schooled children and there the ages are less relevant, in fact diversity in age, experience, knowledge etc is more accepted. ...... food for thought. .

FGS this is a FIVE YEAR OLD you are talking about. A child who would be in the younger end of the year in a straight P1, never mind in a P2.

Any school worth its salt will be setting work appropriate to the ability of the child. That might mean organising for a child to read with older/younger children, taking part in breakout sessions for additional maths, taking on additional project work, jobs in the school requiring additional responsibility - all of those things happen in our Primary School. There is not a folder marked "P1 work" and "P2 work" with zero crossover between. If you do not think your child is being challenged then that is an issue with the school and thet teaching, doesn't mean the solution is to move him/her up a year.

Think this through. Your child would be 10 when they start secondary in the August before their 11th birthday in October, along with children who have been 12 since potentially the January. At that age, almost 2 years is a massive difference. The child would be sitting their Nat 5s at 14, Highers at 15 and leaving at 16 after S6, along with people who are 18. Socially and emotionally this is not a good thing.

School is about SO much more than the academic basics, your child needs to develop emotionally and socially alongside children their own age.

I also think you are far too hung up on "friends" - friendships change very quickly at this stage, and she will still see other children at break, lunch and out of school if she wishes.

But in adult life we have done are maturing so age is not an issue.

My DD is 8 next month and her maturity levels from last year are huge the growing up she has done and the difference between her and the older years again is noticeable. As they age the gap diminishes but I think at 16-18 the perceived gap widens again

What extracurricular stuff does she do that has always been vital for mine learning new skills. Also her clubs tend to have mixed age groups so she has friends in the years above and below. Languages have been another good one she still does Spanish now

And... school is not just a filler.. it is the way in which most people acquire an education. Whether we learn long division at the age of 6 or 8 has little bearing on our long term achievement / happiness but spending 12 years with a group of children who are all the same age as each other but older than ourselves could have an impact on our lives. And I see that your daughter did struggle socially in nursery and is happier now with older children, I do think this will reverse as she goes up through school...