Skipping a year at primary: is it really so bad? Is it worse than NOT skipping?

[Arkadia]

Hi all,

I have been reviewing some threads, here and elsewhere, on the above subject and the opinion seems to be generally negative. However I cannot see why doing otherwise, i.e. NOT skipping a year, would be better.

In a nutshell, DD is currently in a composite 1-2 class. She was put in that class on the advice of the nursery because they felt she needed extra challenges to keep her interested. At nursery she was singularly unengaged and she failed to make any meaningful connection with either children or staff (not that she was unhappy at the idea of going, buy just uninterested).
We were a bit apprehensive at the idea of starting school because, although she seemed OK academically, she was rather withdrawn from an emotional point of view. However, after talking to the headteacher we went for the composite class and waited - note, in our case going for the composite class was against school policy because it is usually reserved for older P1s and younger P2s, but DD is a younger P1 being born at the end of October (we are in Scotland), so the headteacher made an exception.

I am happy to say that DD is much happier in the school environment and she is actually much more engaged both with the teachers and the pupils. So far so good :)
Interestingly, AFAIK she has bonded only with the P2s in her class. The P1s are much more in the background in what she tells us.
Work wise she has been doing both the P1 and he P2 work and (for what it is worth), I would expect her to be top of the P2 in the 3 Rs.

Now, next year I think it would be best of her to go to the P2-3 composite class, but that is the last one on offer. At this moment in time, to go to a P2 would be like repeating a year and it seems meaningless to me. If she goes to the P2-3 she will stay with her friends and the year after she can go straight to P4, again, with most of her friends - note that at our school they sometime mix the pupils from one year to the next.

I have read all the objections stated in other threads which in a nutshell say that problems may arise in the future when the child grows up (puberty, starting to drive, being unable to be out till late, etc.). However, I wonder, is it worth worrying about something that may or may not happen when the alternative now is certainly not great? To have her repeat a year now would cut her off from the environment she has known at school and she would have to redo the work she has already done with ease (I doubt the teacher would be able/willing to set a different workload for her); I am bored only thinking about it... :)

OK, she may still need to sprint further ahead academically (at home she is doing what her P3 sister is doing anyway...), but let's think about one thing a time.

Any ideas?

Isadora2007, the examples I gave you were made up (but in fairness, she CAN divide pretty much any number by a one digit number, but that's my fault :D )
Do I think she is G and T? I have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER. I don't even know what that means in practical terms. To my mind G and T is someone who either likes gin and tonic or does differential equations at primary.
In my case I would say that my daughter is just alert.
I wouldn't want her to go through the experience she had at nursery, but at the same time I wouldn't want to set her up to even more discomfort later on in life.
However, my points remains... What would she do next year in P2 if she has already done what she is supposed to achieve? Are we suppose to hold her back at home so that she would have something to do at school?
Last summer I was talking to the headteacher and I did say that I though that DD was academically strong, but emotionally weak, but I have to say, in this case I was proved wrong... she is much better off this year than she was last year. OK, she has grown up in the meantime, but the difference was evident pretty much from the start of the year or just a few weeks afterwards.

In any case, we are going to see the teacher in the next few days (hence my post here) and perhaps we are going to talk to the headteacher as well to get her views on the matter.

When my DC were in P2 there were children reading Biff & Chip it here's reading chapter books, some on early number bonds some way ahead. The school did differentiate. You are definitely setting your DC up to fail socially. The age difference will be as much as 24 months, increasingly parents are deferring kids thst would never previously been deferred. I know of Oct/Nov/Dec deferrals. Two years younger is huge. These parents often cite the advantage of being the oldest whereas you are pushing to make your DC the youngest by far. University may seem so far away but it isn't. If it is even possible to move her up a year your DC will be 15 at the end of 5th year, others will be 16/17. When her friends start going out to clubs/pubs in 6th year your DC can't join them, they won't stay behind to keep her company, when they go to university she'll have to wait another year. Although she could go at 16 people that I know that have gone at that age have blown up spectacularly. If your DC is academically gifted work with the school.

insan1tyscartching, well, DD1 had a similar path, but in the ends bonded at nursery with her peers.
Were we concerned about DD2? To some extent, but, in all honesty, we didn't know what to do.
As to the present, yes, she engages with her school mates, but to my knowledge primarily with the P2s, or at least they are the ones that get mentioned at home. She engages with the teachers as well, so no concerns in that department any more. As I said above, is it because she has grown up or because she has found more congenial company and more interesting things to do? I do not know.

I skipped a year when I was 6 going on 7. (moved schools when we moved country)
I struggled massively after that.
I did my top year primary twice, and rejoined my peer group (moved back to UK).
I went to Secondary School at the age I always should have done.

TheTroubleWithAngels, you misunderstand me... Nothing has been decided yet and we are still to talk to the head/teacher. At this moment in time I am trying to understand what the best course of action might be.

In my opinion to stay in a composite class seems the most logical course of action, so you keep ALL your options open. What is the problem with that? After all, what is the point of a composite class? Then the following year we can reassess.

But will there even be a p2/3 composite? And won't you just be delaying the issue- which is that she is struggling to relate to age appropriate peers.
And it is worth asking about the high school minimum age as I strongly expect that whilst they could make an exception for a very bright march Birthday child they would not even entertain the idea of an October born... in which case you are much better facing the issue now than p7.

Why not help encourage her a bit by asking the teacher which children are in the top sets of her year now and can she be helped to bond a bit?

There's nothing wrong with keeping her in the composite class but you aren't addressing the problem of her not mixing with her peer group but allowing her to cement her relationship with the children in the year above. This will be more painful when she moves into P3 and her friends move into P4.

The whole point of composite classes are to save money, not to move children up and down academic years. Most councils apply strict rules that children are allocated into composite classes based on age only. I think the school and your council have done you a disservice by fixing your problems from nursery school this way.

Sometimes when they socialise better with older ones it's actually immaturity and the older ones are better at allowing for them, both because they see them as a baby and because they're more mature themselves.

It doesn't necessarily mean that socially they're better with older ones long term.

Have the school even mentioned this or are you just assuming it's an option?

It sounds like you are basing this on friendship and the school certainly wouldn't skip her a year just so she can be with friends! How do you know the rest of the P1 pupils aren't working at the same level as your dd?

Isadora, fair points. I shall make discreet enquiries.

Yes, there is a P2/3 composite, but in our school that's the last one.
However, I do take exception to the expression "age appropriate peers", which suggests that you are fine only if you conform (whatever happened to the Curriculum for Excellence??).

We could ask her teacher, but as it is now I would expect her to be at the top of the P2, whatever that might mean (I don't know for sure, obviously; I base my guess on what DD1 did during P2 and what the teacher told me about her performance at the time).

TheTroubleWithAngels, my point is that if the pupils in the composite class stay in the composite (and I do not know whether it will happen or if they are going to P3) it would make sense for her to stay there as well. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that those in the P1/2 will move to the P2/3 otherwise who is going to go there? If that is the case, then we can reassess next year and no harm will have been done.
As to the impossibility to skip a year because of the LA, I have no idea, but the HT did mention it in the passing last summer, so I assume it is in the realm of possibilities.

I skipped a year in english state primary (as did my husband). I'd agree that academically it was no problem, but socially it was awkward towards the end - but that was pretty much because until I was 14/15 and others were almost 16 my parents were very heavily "you are the same as these children, this is your peer group now" and then overnight did a 180 degree switch to "horrors! our precious lamb is mixing with Large Boys who may have Foul Intentions - or Cars - or Smoke!!!" and stopped me doing any social activities with anyone in my year (who I had grown up with daily for about 2/5 of my life by that point) other than going to teacher-supervised worthy after-school clubs. What was especially hurtful was that I was seen as swotty (which I was, but I still had friends etc) and so I was approximately the last person who was actually going to be invited to do anything exciting anyway!
My feeling is that jumping is fine as long as you basically just take on board that your child is one year older now, and don't panic at puberty. ;-)

See I have a very gifted son although he is an adult now. He entered nursery at four and was working at levels three or four years older than his age but he had strong peer relationships with those in nursery regardless. And throughout school even if he did numeracy and literacy with those three or four years older than him his primary friendships were with those his same age.
I would want to know why she gravitates to older children and I'd want strategies in place to support her in establishing relationships with her peers first and foremost because giftedness IME doesn't have to equal poor peer relationships. Ds was hugely popular his friends didn't care about his abilities he was a good friend and fun to be about which is what mattered.

dancemom, I do not know for sure, except for reading. However, the teacher did tell me just the other day that she works with the P2 for maths (but they do VERY LITTLE of it anyway, so that doesn't mean much).

I see it primarily from the homework as she gets both.

BestZebbie, that is actually insightful and I had given that some thought as well... I agree, you have to think, nay, believe that your child's age is the school year s/he is in, not what it says on the passport.
OK, drinking age might be a problem, but I wouldn't want to have my life ruled by booze :D

While this didn't specifically happen to me, I have some reassurance if you're worrying about what happens when she's older

I am a late oct birthday and perhaps wrongly stayed in my own year. By HS it was clear I was bored stiff so they let me sit some standard grades in S3 and I did 3 highers and the rest of the SGs in S4 and then 3 highers and 2 AH in S5. So I was mixed between year group classes for 3 years. It wasn't an issue. Being a girl helped (old adage about girls being more mature etc). I made varied friend groups. I then left after 5th year and went off to uni the september before I turned 17. It was a Scottish uni. I wasn't the only 16yo. Lived in halls and had the time of my life. I had my MSc by 21.

You could be giving your DD a great start in life doing this - and if it doesn't suit there's ample time for her to return to her own age group e.g. when starting HS.

This is so frustrating you are focusing solely on the academics and ignoring what most of the posters are saying about setting up your DC for many painful experiences from the social aspect. 'Age appropriate peers' isn't something that you shd take exception to, it has nothing to do with confirming to the curriculum for excellence. It's all to do with the fact that when your DC is 14 her friends that will then be 16 will probably not want to be her friend anymore because the age gap at that age is huge. It will get worse each year until she is at university, and that definitely won't be with any of the children that she will have been at school with as they would have gone, 1 of 2 years before, unless you are planning to send your DC to uni at 16 which is a v bad idea. It doesn't matter what your DC does in P2 it matters that she does in S5 and S6.

My struggles with ds school have been long and hard, and I'm passing this on in the spirit of MN, ie supportively.

Don't ask for something they can't give you. It is unheard of for a child to skip a year in Scotland. It's just not on the table. So you can go in, have your meeting, ask for something that the HT then has to go and find out about, they'll come back and say you can't have it, you'll argue the toss, this will all take ages because school pace is not real-life pace... Meantime nothing actually happens to support dd.

Drop it and start asking open questions about how they plan to support your child's learning over the next couple of years. Don't present them with a solution which they aren't able to facilitate. That way madness lies.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett, I am not set on anything (I wouldn't be posting here to ask, otherwise), ALTHOUGH when I spoke to the HT last year the possibility of DD skipping a year was mentioned (BY HER).

What you say is very true. Let us assume that DD does NOT skip, then it would not do at all if she did, say, P2 stuff instead of progressing where she can/want to go. Would the school be prepared/able to accommodate her? That remains very much to be seen.
Said that, I do have a LOT of sympathy for the teacher. That must be a hell of situation to find yourself in. Personally I would have no idea how to deal with it (but I am no teacher...), but would they?
Whichever way you look at it, you are experimenting and since we get only one shot at this, we better get it right ;)

celtiethree, probably it is because at school I was academically bright, but socially not so much (and I did not skip any year ;) )

You don't really seem to understand how differentiation in a classroom works. No child would be sitting doing long division whilst their peers are working on subtraction. They would all be working on the concepts of subtraction, but at different levels. In my classroom I could have eight different groups working on different aspects. Some may still be working on the basics, others starting to find missing numbers, others working on open ended questions, and various points in between. I have a grade 3 class and have students working at levels from grade 1 through to high school. A teacher should be able to cater for that.

You don't suddenly stop needing to work on subtraction just because you can do some long division. There is also the aspect of true understanding of a topic. There are plenty of children who can parrot what they have read or been taught. Truly understanding a topic means able to apply it in different ways. That comes with practice and maturity. Don't be in such a hurry to push her through different parts of the curriculum like it is levels in a computer game. Give her the time to engage with what she is learning and truly understand it.

My ds has been in composites all the way through (small school) and I am a massive fan or them. If she stays in the P1/2 then she can buddy the new children and take a real lead in the classroom, which will be great for her social skills. And the teacher can and should differentiate her work so she won't be repeating the same stuff. What do you think they do for the current P2s? They aren't doing the same things as last year.

It is absolutely their job to accommodate her and keep extending her. Your job is to ask them how they plan to do this.

I don't see why the British are obsessed about children having to be in class with other children the same age. After suffering through incompetent attempts at academic enrichment as a child who was ahead of most others, skipping would have been a better option. I was an outlier socially from Asperger's, and nothing but skilled intervention would have helped me socially. As for puberty and physical maturity, some children will always be last. It's not worth worrying about.
My sister was skipped, and she did fine in high school and university.

I think the problem here is that you don't understand enough about how classrooms work. Children in P2 don't all read the same Oxford Tree books. Some will have ORT books at various different band levels - including the first band. Some kids will be reading chapter books. The reading level at this age has no bearing on academic achievements at secondary school or university - with the exception of exceptionally gifted children and very few children are actually gifted to make these predictions at 6. P1 children in a composite class will be, for the most part, working on P1 work. It is the same for the P2s. In a normal P 1 class, you'll find children working at nursery level and at P3 level. That level of differentiation is normal in 5/6 year olds. When I did my teacher training we had a child of 8 doing GCSE level math. That is an exceptionally gifted child.

There are literally millions of things you can do at home with a child who is a keen learner or academically gifted. You don't need to teach a child the curriculum or read only banded books. Give your child access to as many books as possible and check out some of the great educational apps on line. Your DD should have a log-in for the Sumdog online maths games through the school. There's great stuff on there.

I do find quite troubling that the nursery left your child to her own devices. That was not appropriate under the old curriculum or the Curriculum for Excellence. Your daughter was failed by the staff who should have been supporting her to socialise with other children. I doubt the HMIE would have let that pass in an inspection.

They really don't allow children to skip a year nowadays.

There is a vast difference in academic capability in any class, some teachers are good at dealing with that, some aren't. It's not great but that's just the way it is. In a primary school "career", your child will probably have at least one year of coasting ime.

They will however want your child to be with her actual age group for social maturity reasons.