Skipping a year at primary: is it really so bad? Is it worse than NOT skipping?

[Arkadia]

Hi all,

I have been reviewing some threads, here and elsewhere, on the above subject and the opinion seems to be generally negative. However I cannot see why doing otherwise, i.e. NOT skipping a year, would be better.

In a nutshell, DD is currently in a composite 1-2 class. She was put in that class on the advice of the nursery because they felt she needed extra challenges to keep her interested. At nursery she was singularly unengaged and she failed to make any meaningful connection with either children or staff (not that she was unhappy at the idea of going, buy just uninterested).
We were a bit apprehensive at the idea of starting school because, although she seemed OK academically, she was rather withdrawn from an emotional point of view. However, after talking to the headteacher we went for the composite class and waited - note, in our case going for the composite class was against school policy because it is usually reserved for older P1s and younger P2s, but DD is a younger P1 being born at the end of October (we are in Scotland), so the headteacher made an exception.

I am happy to say that DD is much happier in the school environment and she is actually much more engaged both with the teachers and the pupils. So far so good :)
Interestingly, AFAIK she has bonded only with the P2s in her class. The P1s are much more in the background in what she tells us.
Work wise she has been doing both the P1 and he P2 work and (for what it is worth), I would expect her to be top of the P2 in the 3 Rs.

Now, next year I think it would be best of her to go to the P2-3 composite class, but that is the last one on offer. At this moment in time, to go to a P2 would be like repeating a year and it seems meaningless to me. If she goes to the P2-3 she will stay with her friends and the year after she can go straight to P4, again, with most of her friends - note that at our school they sometime mix the pupils from one year to the next.

I have read all the objections stated in other threads which in a nutshell say that problems may arise in the future when the child grows up (puberty, starting to drive, being unable to be out till late, etc.). However, I wonder, is it worth worrying about something that may or may not happen when the alternative now is certainly not great? To have her repeat a year now would cut her off from the environment she has known at school and she would have to redo the work she has already done with ease (I doubt the teacher would be able/willing to set a different workload for her); I am bored only thinking about it... :)

OK, she may still need to sprint further ahead academically (at home she is doing what her P3 sister is doing anyway...), but let's think about one thing a time.

Any ideas?

'No child should be bringing home new or actually challenging work for homework'

DDS old school were a nightmare for sending home new work.

The worst was pages of old gcse maths tests. The kids had to answer, she marked and sent back in correct ones to be done redone without telling them what they had done wrong.

In year 7.

Boiled I see your point but remember private schools can, for example, freely employ unqualified teachers. Don't assume teachers in private schools are automatically 'better'.

Let that's not good!

Ds' primary school was/is a very good one. I have nothing but compliments about it. Despite that, for 2 out of his 7 years, he had teachers I wasn't 100% happy with. Given that I can't expect a school to be built around my pfb, I had to thole it. I raised the particular issues with the teacher (and then the headteacher with whom I had a good relationship) and they were addressed (eg "top" group for Maths getting bored, same homework being sent home for all). Given he still made progress, I was prepared to accept that there is variation between years/teachers.

He is now doing extremely well in S5 (and says when he was in S1, he realised he'd had a great foundation compared to some of the intake from other feeder primaries).

At ds' primary, we didn't know who the teacher was going to be until June - and occasionally it was even changed over the summer. The headteacher didn't know the exact composition of her P1 intake until the end of April and then often had to shuffle the composite classes all the way up the school to maintain the appropriate class size. She would also sometimes shuffle teachers to different age groups, just to keep them fresh. Also, she has no control over any new teachers she might require, (with the exception of promoted posts), as they are allocated by the council. This can be an issue, especially if they are a probationer teacher. (this happened one year to ds, when he thought he was getting a favourite teacher he'd had earlier, but she ended up being shared across 2 classes as the school was allocated a probationer and the head teacher wanted to be sure she had support. As it happens, the probationer was brilliant).

To address another issue re age at the end of the school process: I was "old" (as in April birthday) in my year, but I went to Uni after 5th year. I was therefore 17 for half of my first year. I did struggle emotionally and socially for a while - despite St Andrews having checked with my school to confirm that I was mature enough to go from 5th Year. I coped - but only just.

I do think it's a little unusual for five-year-olds not to want to do any extra curricular activities. I have a five-year-old and I can't think of any of his peers who don't. It's even on the equivalent of a five-year health visitor check here, to make sure they do at least one (paid for by the local council if low income). What did the teacher say about her social development?

Just going back to one of your earlier posts OP, you mentioned what if P2 are reading ORT 6 this time next year while she is reading ORT 8-10 (Jackdaws). Both my dd read ORT level 6 in P1 and the equivalent of Jackdaws in P2. They were not exceptional nor in the top reading group. At least 20% of her class were reading at that level or above.

blaeberry, are you in England or Scotland?

Scotland

What blaeberry says, I do agree, my ds was reading ort lv11 in reception(p1?). Ort 8-10 in yr1(p2?) is not unusual.

irvineoneohone, the jackdaws (an old classification that doesn't exist anymore) is much harder than the Owls or the Robins (again, old classification). The books are MUCH longer (about three times the number of words) the vocabulary is richer and the turn of phrase more like a "normal" book's. A Jackdaws 8 is in no way comparable to a Robin 8. they are at different levels. When DD1 moved from Robins (level 10) to Jackdaws (level 8) I was surprised, but when I opened the book I understood :)

As a comparison, some weeks ago we got from the library a "new" level 7 ("Roman adventure") and that was more or less what I would have expected from an old Robin level 7-8 or thereabouts. I find the ORT levels VERY confusing ;)

Blaeberry, my expectations are clearly low, but I would be VERY surprised if a P2 in Scotland could cope with the Jackdaws and not be top of they class (unless by some freak coincidence there is another good reader there), let alone being only in the top 20% ;)

OP - I think you view the school program too simplistically. And the main difference/differentiation need is in math - as you correctly point out. But diffferentiating is not as difficult as you think.
If kids do doubling of small numbers - your particular kid can double two/three/four digit numbers.
If other kids are multiplying by 2 - again, your kid can multiply bigger numbers.
And, if there is still time - work on extra word problems.
Ability to calculate - arithmetics - are just tools. Math is about so much more!!! And teachers have access to a lot of resources to extend the bright ones.

This is just one of the resources teachers use:
nrich.maths.org/5716

And in all other subjects - which is the majority of the day - there is really no problems at all. So - she'll write a longer story with richer vocabulary, etc. Ask deeper questions in history, geography. Her notes/drawings in science would look more mature. (I am speaking from experience here, not making it up)

I have a bright kid. Just like yours she was a young for her year, not that interested in peers, easier interacted with older kids, read by the time the started school, knew all timetables by 6, also started Harry Potter then, etc. Succefully a competive 7+... blah, blah.

Academically - she was, still is in some areas a year/two ahead of her peers. At 6/7 it's more visible, later on other kids start accelerating too.

Socially - she is quieter, and not that sporty. And I'd never put her up a year. The confidence boost she has been getting (now she is 10yo) from being at/close to the top of the class - this is invaluable for her confidence as an adult.

It sounds like you see this 'move up' as some sort of badge of honour.

It is not. You don't. We'd to prove to anybody that your kid is smart. You (and I am sure, everybody) already know that.
But - amount and speed of learned facts is not everything. Confidence is also important.
Being almost 2 years younger than the classmates - would she ever be the 'smart' one? picked (or even run for) as the captain of the class, run as fast as, at least the average kid in the class?
These things matter more than you think. Give her a chance to be that confident and bright kid, that she is.

Haven't got a clue about Robin or Jackdaw, it must be really difficult level then. The books my ds was reading in summer term reception was Roald Dahl(The Witch), Secret Seven, Roman Mysteries from school library. What sort of level are they in Jackdaw? They are classed as lime+ (lv11+) at my ds's school in ks1.(rec-yr2)

"A Jackdaws 8 is in no way comparable to a Robin 8. they are at different levels" not according to OUP

At 5, 6 and even 7, you can't judge how "clever" kids are. As MMmom has said, differences can seem exaggerated at this stage.

Ds was a late reader - took him until the end of P2 to "get" reading, despite lots of extra 1:1 from the depute at the beginning of P2 (because he was bright, he had spent P1 learning the books off by heart).

They told me not to worry, as some children just aren't ready to read until they're 6 (ds was 6.5 when he finally "got" it).

They were more concerned with ensuring that he stayed confident in himself, so after the 1:1 work the 1st weeks of P2 proved not to be sufficient, moved him from the top reading group into the middle group. It took him until the end of P4 to move back to the top group. For a long time he was "between" groups, but, working with the school, we encouraged him to read at home and "free read" for himself (it was actually sports articles in the newspaper that enthused him - and then "Captain Underpants" books ) until he was ready to move up.

He's now 16, in the top set for English, got an A for his Nat 5 and is on course to get an A for his Higher English (his weakest least strong subject but he knew we wouldn't let him drop it )

Even more importantly, he is confident, sociable and enjoys school most of the time

What a child is doing at 5 is not necessarily an indicator of their ability (or lack of) long term. Not saying that your dd isn't clever - I'm sure she is - but give the school credit for their ability to deal with children of different abilities and different stages of development.

The Jackdaws are usually made up of 2-3 stories plus a "fact file" (as DD1 calls them). Here I enclose a picture of this week's. It is level 10 (but I don't what difference there is between 8, 9 or 10).
Contrast it with owl level 6 which to me should be very easy for a P2. If I correctly remember the "robins" are higher than the "owls", but not that different. When we first got the Jackdaws the difference was stark.
With DD1 we tried to get the teacher to give us more books to read (and more challenging books) but to not avail - in P1-2 we got a book every 7-14 days :( . Stupidly at the time we hadn't started using the library yet... How silly can one be.
The "newer" ORT (Roman Adventure) that I mentioned above is certainly more difficult than the owl in the picture, but still way below the jackdaw.

MMmomDD: if you read the last few messages I posted you will see that things have moved on.

irvineoneohone, I haven't got a clue about numbers :D Our books are 20-30 years old and I believe that the classification changed more then once ;)

I am always very confused when I try to get something from the library that is ORT because I just don't recognize it. thankfully we have now reached a stage that it doesn't really matter... so instead we pick up something that they seem to like (the jackdaws are a pretty boring read, except this last one that wasn't bad).
in particular we have enjoyed the "Early Reader" collection (blue and red). Some of their books are fantastic. Shame that the red ones (the more advanced) are pretty much Horrid Henry and nothing else :(

prettybird: agree

irvineoneohone, I haven't got a clue about numbers colours :D

Longer doesn't equal level of difficulty

Look - people here post with best intentions and from their experiences.

I thought people asking questions - come here exactly for that.
After the first few pages of people saying that it's a bad idea, and you firmly holding your course of 'must skip, my kid is way too bright', as well as getting lost on the arithmetics and reading levels - yes, I stopped reading.
And frankly - getting lost in the discussions of books and levels - is not hugely useful for anyone.

But I still thought - a perspective of someone with a similar kid, but by now, several years older - may be valuable.

Good luck with whatever decision you make.

I don't think early reading is necessarily an indicator of high ability tbh. I have dc who learned to read at 2 and read the fire escape instructions on the way into nursery at nearly four and then I had a dd who really had to work at learning to read and was about 9 before she started to thrive academically. It was dd who was the Oxbridge candidate though and not ds.
Another ds who is/was gifted so much so that his nursery teacher called in the ed psych read the sports pages of newspapers at five but it was probably his Maths ability that marked him out (he was GCSE level by age 10 ) He still stayed in his year though, school was creative at times in providing work for him and sometimes they just let him take his head and see where it went. He enjoyed school, he was sometimes bored because it wasn't fast enough paced but he made great friends and represented his school in sport and enjoyed all the enrichment activities that he was always fully involved with.
For me I would be looking at why your dd didn't engage in nursery, being more comfortable with older children is sometimes because a child struggles socially as older children are more accommodating and make allowances and pick up the slack. It's probably more important at five that you are socially able and secure than it is to be able to read high level reading books tbh.

Agree with others. I thought you may needed reality check, but to no avail.
Good luck, anyways.

My DSs were early readers, well actually that isn't strictly true - they didn't read before entering school at age 5 but picked it up quickly to the point where they had both finished reading the first 3 Harry Potter books by the start of P3. They both stayed in their years, they would sometimes be sent up a class for reading and maths sessions though so that might be a possibility?

Reading tests always put them at least 3 years above their age, but I agree, it does indicate a degree of intelligence but doesn't mean that they will be geniuses or be unchallenged by school and in particular High School. Neither of mine are stand out stars in English now. DS1 got an A at National 5 but it wasn't his best A and didn#t choose it for Higher. DS2 who was probably better at english in primary is doing Ok, he should manage an A at National 5 but it's not looking guaranteed.

On the other hand DS1 really struggled with his times tables in primary and only dropped 2 points in the Nat 5 Maths exam but DS2 who was a bit of a mathemagician in primary is really really struggling with High School Maths.

DD1 was reading full length classics at 6/7. She's not gifted, she just spends a lot of her time on reading and always has. She's not as physically able (sports wise) as her sister because she spends so much time reading. She's averagely intelligent she's just directed most of what intelligence she has onto reading and other similar (quiet) activities that interest her. Shes in the top set in her class but not needing any extra. She's in the top set because she's a hard worker, it's not an IQ/G&T thing…

… and FYI, most kids read above their school levels when reading recreationally, primary school readers tend to bring them back to basic to go over the fundamentals

The top reading set kids were reading well when they started P1 and were reading Roald Dahl type books (the longer ones such as BFG, Matilda) by the start of P2. One child I remember started P1 with a reading age of 8 but a couple of other children had caught up with her by P2. So, in a class of 25 there may be 2 of these advanced readers and 3 at my dds level (so 20%). Incidentally, my ds is in the bottom set (has ASN) and read ORT level 6 by the end of P2 (though some others were lower than this). Perhaps it is a (state) school of brighter kids?

There is one child in P3 at the moment working at Nat 4 maths, her mum is having a real struggle to have her moved up a year.

Everyone catches up with reading - mainly cos unlike a lot of subjects you cant really excel at it, once you can read you can read. My reading is no better than it was at 8 apart from the odd vocab addition

In DD class of Year 3 (about to turn 8) 1/4 are free readers (so gone through the system) and 1/3 of the remained are on the last level - partly because of the amazing year 1 teacher. I reckon almost all will be free readers by Year 5

[Totally OT]
I wonder... why are the school reading books soooooo dull? Actually the first Biff and Chip's (apostrophe?) were more entertaining and at least they were over and done with within 5 mins tops. Instead these longer books take time to read and this has become a chore. I have come across many beautiful books suitable for kids that age (give or take), but I wonder why the school doesn't promote them. Also, since we HAVE to read the Jackdaws, about 3 evenings are being used up by reading those which is a bit of a waste - and a bore...
[/OT]