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What would happen if a child didn't want to do their work?

373 replies

Classof2032 · 29/04/2016 18:16

Basically that. My 5 year old was kept in at playtime and lost all of her Golden Time today. I feel it was extremely harsh and has the obvious side effect of her deciding that she doesn't like her teacher any more.

OP posts:
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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 01/05/2016 17:30

I'd agree they're not the same thing, but I'm not sure from Cody's post whether she's saying they are.

If you send children to a specific area, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are expected to carry out a specific task there. It's often a classroom management strategy or a misguided attempt to encourage children to use a variety of different resources.

Although this doesn't really apply to the OP since in every Reception class there are directed activities that all children are expected to do, regardless of the specific balance of adult directed:adult initiated:child initiated learning in that class.

LittleNelle · 01/05/2016 17:44

Cody described a set up with a carousel system of adult directed activities, with children put into groups and not getting to 'choose what to play'.

MrsHathaway · 01/05/2016 18:03

No matter how much planning goes on, the children think they're "just playing". I'm gobsmacked by the brilliance of my DS2's EYFS team (two teachers and a TA for thirty children).

momtothree · 01/05/2016 22:44

No matter how much planning goes on, the children think they're "just playing"

So do the parents it seems!!

The teachers are paid to teach - they will do phonics - some form of letter formation - through sand or foam or water paints chalk -

Literacy If that's story telling - dress up - or home corner - or writing or telling a story to an iPad app - it's still literacy - repeating back a story in the right order - sequencing through pictures - getting the children to think about sentences and structure - rhyming words - and the like

Counting to 10 or 20 - counting in twos - forming numbers or numbers bonds through singing or clapping

It's all play based learning

You ought to go and ask your Reception Teacher what objectives they've reached!!

MidniteScribbler · 01/05/2016 22:49

Lager, there is a big difference between making appropriate accommodations for a child who does have special needs, and allowing a child to do what they want, when they want.

I have a number of students with very different needs in my classroom and they are all managed differently. But I would not be calm, caring, capable and well, just, professional if I just allowed a child to spend the day reading books (or playing Minecraft as would be the preferred option among my students). It may mean encouraging a child during the writing activity to write about Minecraft instead of their holiday, as works well with one of my students. It may mean setting very specific targets: 'I'd like you to write five sentences, using these words, and three different types of punctuation'. Or one boy in my class who I know will need to be sent for a run around the oval in the middle of his work to give him a break. It may be a worksheet that is targeted towards their need, or it could be allowing them a choice of targeted activity, or giving them a timer so they know how much time is left. And yes, in all cases in my classes, for all students, it does mean the expectation to finish off the work that is set for them, whether it be during class or during their project time on Friday afternoon.

But allowing a child to do what they want, when they want, is NOT being a good teacher. That's a teacher who either doesn't know how to manage the different students in their care, or doesn't want to. Believe me, some days you wish you could just leave them all with their books and not have to make them do the tasks that they need to do. Setting clear expectations and manageable and achievable targets is what works best for students, then sticking to them. Many of the kids in my class absolutely love to read, but they know that in order to be able to spend some time free reading, that they need to complete the task first, then they will be allowed their reading time. They don't get to just decide that they will read instead of doing their work.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 01/05/2016 23:20

I think the issue might be terminology. This is another area where terms aren't very clearly defined (adult initiated, child initiated, adult directed, play) so teachers might mean very different things by the same term. Added to which the EYFS doesn't really suggest in what ratio those things should be 'balanced'. I've seen 80/20, 50/50 and 60/40 quoted. Although I think at least one of those is a misunderstanding.

But it leads to teachers all saying they teach using learning through play, while their classrooms look very, very different in practice.

catkind · 01/05/2016 23:29

Part of 'the children think they're just playing' is that the children think they have choice. I think it's very understandable in a reception child to have some confusion about where that choice ends. As they move towards year 1 and higher they move towards the sort of setup MidniteScribbler describes.

I would be interested to know more about what work the child refused. From the way OP phrased it it doesn't sound like refused to sit on the carpet for phonics or refused to join in teacher led counting game. It sounded to me like they were talking worksheet or other written work. Which would be quite a new sort of thing for them still.

mrz · 02/05/2016 06:42

Most reception classes will have focused teacher led/directed times where taking part is non negotiable and child initiated choosing times where the child can choose what they want to do from the resources provided by staff.

LagerthaSilverHair · 02/05/2016 08:28

Midnite, no where on this thread, if you read my numerous posts, have I advocated letting a child do what they want when they want.

I have found the level of outrage and shock, derision of the OP, shown by posts on here, some from teachers, over the OP's daughter's behaviour and her concern that the punishment was too harsh, serving only to give her daughter a negative association of school, unprofessional.

I do not think it it particularly outrageous or shocking that the OP may be familiar with punishments and ultimatums being ineffective in managing her daughter's behaviour, this necessitating alternative behaviour management strategies. This does not make her a bad parent.

We don't know whether the OP's daughter has additional needs or not. However the fact that many children do have additional needs, which can manifest as work refusal, should mean that teachers should not find work refusal particularly shocking and also be prepared to acknowledge punishment for this is often totally inappropriate.

babyinthacorner · 02/05/2016 08:36

Lager believe me, teachers at this stage in time have no choice but to take responsibility for less than totally compliant children. I'm not sure you understand the pressure that is on us to deliver results under the new curriculum.
Our job is made so much easier when we have the support of parents and carers. I've taught cohorts where I struggle to get 10 parents to agree to parent meetings and school trips almost haven't gone ahead due to lack of parents volunteering to accompany us. I've also taught cohorts whose parents go above and beyond what I suggest they do with their children at home and are in constant communication with me about how their child is doing and how they can help. Guess which cohort performs better?
I don't think anybody is saying that a child that doesn't do their work should be punished immediately, but the parent needs to be behind the school - even if privately they have a problem with what went on. That's a conversation to have with teacher out of earshot of the child. The child needs to know that teachers and parents are on the same team - which of course they are, as they both want the best for the child.

user789653241 · 02/05/2016 08:38

My ds was kept in during play time to finish his work in the past. Of course he wasn't happy. But he just told me about it, and forget about. I don't think he lost golden time as a result, because he didn't refuse to work, he is just slow writer and a day dreamer. Never came to my mind to complain about it to school.
If dc has special needs, they should be treated differently. But OP never came back to tell us her side of story or any relevant details. (Of course she doesn't have to, but we can only comment from what she has posted so far.)

Mouseinahole · 02/05/2016 08:49

I can't believe anyone thinks that a child beyond Reception can be allowed to 'not want to' do their work! Of course they don't want to! They want to chat and play and run about but sometimes they have to learn to focus and apply themselves to a task. At 5 that task is unlikely to be especially onerous but will have been structured to support learning objectives. You can't have one child choosing not to do it! The mother is doing her child no favours at all.

sallyhasleftthebuilding · 02/05/2016 08:50

serving only to give her daughter a negative association of school

As far as we know - it was once!

The teacher - we assume has been teaching DD since September and will know what the child is capable of - will know what works and what doesn't - she may have others also refuse work and have them all the choice - complete now or during break

Child may have been messing about, not listening, or just decided she didn't want to / she may have been stubborn or rude to the teacher - we don't know.

But all their angst about one playtime may now cause a little girl to not like her teacher and refuse school just highlights her stubbornness and her parents pondering to their snowflakes demands.

Stop being so affronted! You don't know how many behaviour management techniques this teacher tried - probably all of them - and used this as a last resort -

If you go in and complain - the teacher will report back to other staff that you are a parent to watch out for, your daughter won't get pushed in futures and you'll wonder why she's behind in her work -

Your choice really

LagerthaSilverHair · 02/05/2016 08:59

Our job is made so much easier when we have the support of parents and carers. I've taught cohorts where I struggle to get 10 parents to agree to parent meetings and school trips almost haven't gone ahead due to lack of parents volunteering to accompany us.

baby supporting a school does not mean not mean never questioning whether a teacher's actions are the best course of action. A parent has a wealth of experience regarding their child, some work in teaching oo related fields too (so they often have professional expertise in this area) so they should be listened to and taken seriously.

Supporting teachers does not mean necessarily volunteering for trips either. Parents most usually have other commitments which they have to prioritise, they are not there for the school to utilise as a resource and a school should not expect or demand this.

The OP has not said she criticises the teacher in front of the child. All she has said is that she will not tell her child to do whatever an adult tells her, which I took to mean she is careful about doing so because it could leave her child open to abuse.

LagerthaSilverHair · 02/05/2016 09:05

If you go in and complain - the teacher will report back to other staff that you are a parent to watch out for, your daughter won't get pushed in futures and you'll wonder why she's behind in her work -

sally, the OP has not said she will go into 'complain', I suspect she posted in order to gage reactions on here. This will help her decide her approach when talking to the teacher. Added to this, if you modified your approach, so as to give less attention to a child in ensuring they progress in their learning, just because their parent made a complaint, this is discriminatory -see why I find these sort of comments (if from teachers) unprofessional?

user789653241 · 02/05/2016 09:13

"All she has said is that she will not tell her child to do whatever an adult tells her"

I tell my ds to listen to whatever teacher/TA/ any adult say in school. They are the authority at school, and I believe my ds should respect them. Is that wrong, Lager?
I have a trust for school staff, and if he was made to do something completely unreasonable, I would complain, but in normal situation, that's what I believe.

LagerthaSilverHair · 02/05/2016 09:21

Not every situation is normal though, irvine. This is why I empathise with the OP's sentiment regarding this comment.

Personally I would approach instilling the importance of education and school work, not merely from a point of the importance of obedience to adults but through a discussion of how we learn best, how some people are experts, respect, and why rules are there.

user789653241 · 02/05/2016 09:34

My ds hates writing. He would rather do maths instead. But if I backed him up when he said he doesn't want to do writing because "he doesn't want to", It would be a great loss for him. They need to learn to do things they don't want to do, because they are in school. And if every child did this, how a teacher deal with the situation? Spending time with every single child to find out why they are refusing? I think it's impossible.

LagerthaSilverHair · 02/05/2016 10:01

And if every child did this, how a teacher deal with the situation? Spending time with every single child to find out why they are refusing? I think it's impossible.

irvine, not every child does do this with any regularity, though. Just because some children find it difficult to behave within standard expectations and have differing needs, which require a modified approach does not mean all find it difficult, have differing needs and require a modified approach.

For those who do not find it difficult to conform to expectations, the realistic threat of a sanction will most probably work. However sanctions only tend to cause anxiety in children who do not have confidence that they can perform to expectations.

The teacher does not, therefore, have to spend time, with every child in order to find out why they are refusing. Not every child refuses. For some, the realistic threat of a sanction, is enough to make them decide to conform. However for those whom sanctions and ultimatums do not work, time inevitable will have to be spent with them, to find out why they are not progressing as they should - they still are entitled to an education.

bruffin · 02/05/2016 10:02

Sadly for her dd Op was already "that parent" within a few weeks of starting school.She was banned from seeing the class teacher at one point if I remember correctly.

LagerthaSilverHair · 02/05/2016 10:03

^inevitably. Typo.

LagerthaSilverHair · 02/05/2016 10:07

and if indeed, the majority of the class are^ refusing to do their work this leads to very big questions regarding the appropriateness of the work set /class management in general.

momtothree · 02/05/2016 10:24

Sadly for her dd Op was already "that parent" within a few weeks of starting school.She was banned from seeing the class teacher at one point if I remember correctly.

Was this the cardi - or something else?

Cardi was: At the end of the day DD asked the teacher if she had seen her cardi - teacher was talking to another parent - turned to the child and said "no I haven't"
OP thought the teacher should drop everything immediately and hunt for the cardigan -
She did not offer to look herself and thought the child shouldn't have to either.

The HT said she couldn't have parent meetings with the teacher unless the HT was present -

There was another incident - I think over homework - where the school brochure stated "weekly" homework and none was given one week - it may have been left in a tray - but the OP went in with the brochure and demanded homework - is that right??

LagerthaSilverHair · 02/05/2016 10:36

Has the OP posted additional information on other threads? Using the same user name? Because we cannot assume this is the same poster, if the user names have changed.

momtothree · 02/05/2016 10:38

At least 4 of us have commented on this being the same person -

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