Our youngest didn't get into the same school as his 16 month older brother - can't split myself in two! - appeal?

[OhForFrigSake]

Ok, so my eldest son goes to a lovely village school jus outside of our catchment. We applied for his place and were surprised he got in last year.

This year his younger brother didn't get in - he has been allocated a school within our PAA.

The problem is, I cannot split myself in two to drop them both off at the same time. The eldest has just gone 5 and youngest not 4 yet - they're still young - I can't leave them waiting around the school to go in/ come out and wait without me there.

I've estimated that if I drop the youngest one off first at 9am (which makes sense as it's the closest school), I'll then need to get the eldest into the car, and 2 miles through the village (very congested - especially as we'll be late and parents will be leaving the site by that time). By the time we get there the eldest will be between 20 minutes to half an hour late to school. We'll then have to do this in reverse on a night and I'm guessing the teacher or TA in my youngest's school won't wait on for 30 minutes while I'm late to get him every single day!

The school drop off/ pick up will become a logistical nightmare with no choice but for us to be late for each school once a day - furthermore I work for myself and the idea of different inset days/ school plays/ school events is already making me want to cry.

Should I appeal on the grounds that the original allocation was 'a decision so outrageous in its defiance of logic that no sensible person who applied his mind to the question could have arrived at it?' (Wording taken from the appeal guidelines). Do you think I have a chance of success at appeal?

I assume that the reason he didn't get in is over subscription. Our admission criteria is:

1. looked after children and children with special educational needs
2. children in the PAA with siblings in the school
3. children in the PAA
4. children outside the PAA with siblings in the school
5. children outside the PAA

Our neighbours on the next street got their out of catchment sibling in the same school so I guess they were the last child to get in and we were the cut off

You've got to try an appeal, haven't you? And, of course, stay on any continuing interest lists. Everything crossed that it works out for you.

You've got to try an appeal, haven't you?

I can absolutely see why any particular set of parents would, and would support any friend wanting to do so ...

... but what must the cost be to LAs of all those unfounded appeals? All those "but we reeeeeeally really wanted School A because DH went there" or "but School B is near the ILs' house" or "but School C is a shithole" appeals which just have no grounds at all. It must cost an absolute fortune to run all those appeals.

Based on personal experience, definitely appeal. Your chances of winning are slim and it's an emotional process but it shows the school and authority how passionate you are to keep your children together.

Make sure you stay in close contact with your preferred school - check you are on the waiting list and WILL STAY on the list until you get a place. Some schools wipe their waiting lists clean each term and you have to ask again.

Logistically, it's tough but again, speak to both schools. The teachers / office staff should understand, after all the admission policies are nothing to do with them & many will be parents themselves so understand your problem. I had an agreement with my preferred school that my eldest daughter (6yrs at time), could be dropped into the office early and picked up late. She tidied the classroom for her teacher! And our youngest child would always be the first child out at 3:15pm.
You will make it work because you have to but keep fighting. After 12 months, we won our 2nd appeal. Good luck!

I would never deny anyone their chance to appeal if they're determined to have their moment in "court", but MrsHathaway is right that appealing just so that a message is sent about just how much the parents want their child to attend that school is pretty pointless. And it's also pretty pointless to appeal just to demonstrate how much you want your children to be at the same school. Schools know that and LEAs know that but, until such time as schools have unlimited capacity (which is never likely to happen) some children will miss out on their first choice school and sometimes that will include siblings.

Unfortunately as others have stated that's the risk you ran by accepting an out of catchment place for your eldest. In our area the priorities run adopted/fostered SN, catchment then children with siblings. I think this is fairer otherwise some children will miss out on a place at the local school. Get you children on the waiting lists for each other's schools. I think an appeal would be futile. The local authority is not acting unreasonably and has made it's decision in line with its published criteria. Sorry you are having to deal with this stress

Good point about the nursery your ds2 can go to nursery until the term after his 5th birthday. Could he go to nursery near ds1 school you would still receive 15 free hours and tax credits if income allows.

IslaSinga Mon 18-Apr-16 23:21:32
That is terrible showofhands sad -Don't give up hope yet.
I have never heard of anything like this happening where I live - siblings are always first priority when allocating school places - seems crazy not to do it that way.

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I disagree. Why should a child living close to the school lose out on a place, just because another child living further away has a sibling at the school?

In our LEA the priority order after LAC/SEND children is catchment with sibling, catchment, out of catchment with sibling, out of catchment. This seems fair enough though can still seem unfair if you live in area with lots of children in catchment with siblings and yours is an only or eldest child.

This order was generally put in place to stop people getting a child in the school and then moving out of catchment soon after, iirr.

Yes but about 30% of the intake for most of the schools where I live are FSM and are in council accommodation. Most have been rehoused in recent years by the council, near enough to stay at the school but still a distance away. This isn't thei fault so why should they be penalised?

Likewise my friend lived next to the school but her marriage broke up. The house belonged to her ex-MiL so she moved out and the only place she could find close enough to get her son to school was still two bus journey's away.

I see your point, NynaevesSister but, as my lawyer friends say, hard cases make bad law.

There are instances in which people are forced by unwelcome circumstances to move farther from their child's primary school - and I would want oversubscription criteria to cater for that, maybe under the medical/social need criterion - but there is (in my observation) a far bigger problem with families living in a neighbourhood just long enough to get their first child into a school, decamping miles away and then taking places for subsequent children at the expense of other children living far nearer. This happened a lot at our primary school. It does nothing for the local nature of primary schools and adds to traffic congestion in the mornings. Criteria that give descending priority to in catchment sibling > in catchment > out of catchment sibling > out of catchment seem reasonable to me.

Assuming you don't get a place for your youngest at your oldest DC school (which hopefully you will), at the ages of your children I'd just be late every morning and afternoon with the youngest. Tell the school why and that you are waiting for a place at your other child's school. I've worked in schools and it is very common. Nothing the school can do about it. They certainly can't make you pay for childminder you can't afford because the LEA put you in that position.

But do keep chivvying the other school about a place. Sooner or later someone will leave.

Really? None of the schools in our LEA would tolerate daily lateness, however sympathetic they might be to a parent's situation. They would expect parents to use some combination of breakfast and after school clubs, childminder or swaps with other parents.

Just to clarify, we are only just outside the catchment for this school and live in a fairly rural area. It's not the case that I have some fairly tenuous whim for wanting my son at the school as some other poster pointed out 'my DH went there... It's along the road from MIL' I simply chose the best school locally for my eldest DS (the same school incidentally that all the other children on my street also attend) and got him in. I know that as we're out of catchment there is always a chance that you won't be successful a second time but I assumed that as I now had a sibling in the school (and therefore further up the ranking in terms of admission criteria) that we wouldn't have a problem. I know a lot of posters seem to think it's my fault for applying in the first place but I just wanted both my children to attend the best school and now it's obviously going to mean a massive inconvenience or a move for the eldest because we can't get the youngest in. I think it's ok for me to feel fed up about it.

Oh, and I have today found out that the LEA have incorrectly applied their own admission criteria by offering a place to a child outside the catchment for the school who also does not have a sibling attending. They have clearly cocked up here, maybe more than once.

I have been persistently told that I have no chance at winning an appeal but clearly my LEA have messed up somewhere which may have led to my DS being denied a place. It's very frustrating.

Oh, and I have today found out that the LEA have incorrectly applied their own admission criteria by offering a place to a child outside the catchment for the school who also does not have a sibling attending.

This is your appeal then

Breakfast club? My eldest is 5 and is dropped at school at 8.15 by DH whilst I take the DD2 to nursery on the other side of town. Most schools are geared up for early drop offs now aren't they? I am sympathetic though - what a pain in the arse.

Yes Cody. I rang the LEA to let them know this today and the worried sounding woman took my details and said she'd 'investigate' and get in touch with me in the next 24 hours. This was this morning so hopefully I'll hear from them tomorrow.

I have heard from a fairly good authority that my local school admissions team have been understaffed and have taken on temporary employees to help them through the busy period of school admissions. I do wonder if this has led to some errors in the decision making process when calculating priorities for admission and offers?

Sorry if I've missed this, but how do you know the place given to the child outside catchment was given in error?

If it was - ie the child wasn't in a higher priority group because of (eg) social/medical needs or wasn't just in the same priority group as you but got the place because they live closer to the school than you do - and the LEA have confirmed this, then it may be the basis of an appeal. You would, though, need to satisfy the panel not only that there was a mistake but that that mistake led to your child missing out on a place that should have been theirs. It's possible that, if you can convince the panel that the whole admissions process was a shambles (for which you would need to provide some evidence), they might give you the benefit of the doubt anyway, although that would probably be beyond what they ought to be doing under ICS rules.

"the LEA have incorrectly applied their own admission criteria by offering a place to a child outside the catchment"

I wondered why can you be so sure they "coked up", as you say?

In my classes there were always some children who were always late in the morning and/or the last to be picked up every day. We ran a late book where we entered the details and that was about the extent of it. We all knew that those children had other siblings at another school or that the parents did not finish work early enough to collect them on time.

We weren't unsympathetic because most people had genuine logistical issues and staff took it in turns to be on late duty after school (covering late children for the whole school). In the real world that's what happens. Strangely, staff don't go home at 3.30 anyway!

'Cocked up' is a fairly common term where I'm from Irvine, sorry if it's offended your sensibilities.

The reason I say this is because I know the mother of the child who has said that her child has been offered a place which she found 'strange as we're not in catchment', the child also doesn't have a sibling in the school. My son also isn't in catchment (we're sat on the border) but is a sibling of a current pupil. To my knowledge there are no special circumstances (medical etc) that would put the child at the top of the priority list - they didn't even put the school down as their first choice. Surely on this basis it is understandable that I would ask the LEA to look into the process and ensure that its been done fairly/ following correct protocol?

I have nothing against you questioning LEA or appealing. I just thought if I applied for my ds's school place with some medical/ whatever different reasons, I wouldn't tell others. So, just wondered what made you so sure her dc got a place wrongly/ LEA made mistake.

Because she expressed such shock Irvine and hadn't actually put the school as first choice. Presumably if she'd selected the school because it was best able to suit her child's needs due to some specific reason it would have been her first choice rather than second or third?

But who knows. Perhaps I have got it wrong and her child has a valid reason for having an offer made - but I suspect it could be not outside the realms of possibility that our LEA have simply made an error. They have form for doing similar in previous years iirr.

And as someone rightly pointed out, it is not for me to assess the suitability of her child to be given an offer (it's none of my business what her child's circumstances are after all!) but that does not mean that the LEA should not look into it and make sure they have applied their criteria correctly. They said they'd let me know within 24 hours so I'll be sure to let you know.

ohforfrigsake I think you can easily appeal or even win a place without appeal if they made a mistake. A friend of mine got her daughter into the first choice school because the LEA had indeed made a mistake, and thought she was out of catchment. She rang the Head, who checked on a map himself, confirmed she's just inside catchment and the LEA offered them a place the next day as they said she would win an appeal.

We also won our appeal last year, though ours was for a PAN 15 school. Our dd actually got in with three others, making her class 18. They also took 18 the year before and I hear there are two for appeal this year. One girl who lost her appeal and came to our school has just been offered a place at their first choice so is leaving, as is another girl who's family are being asked to leave their rented house and don't have transport so are taking a more local to their new house place. I really couldn't see any movement in my dd's class so it can happen. Good luck. I lost many hours sleep over a similar situation and that was without a sibling in! Luckily this year my dts got in on the sibling criteria.

Also - school told us to appeal and that we'd win. MN told me we'd be highly unlikely to win it as our case wasn't very strong despite the PAN 15