Our youngest didn't get into the same school as his 16 month older brother - can't split myself in two! - appeal?

[OhForFrigSake]

Ok, so my eldest son goes to a lovely village school jus outside of our catchment. We applied for his place and were surprised he got in last year.

This year his younger brother didn't get in - he has been allocated a school within our PAA.

The problem is, I cannot split myself in two to drop them both off at the same time. The eldest has just gone 5 and youngest not 4 yet - they're still young - I can't leave them waiting around the school to go in/ come out and wait without me there.

I've estimated that if I drop the youngest one off first at 9am (which makes sense as it's the closest school), I'll then need to get the eldest into the car, and 2 miles through the village (very congested - especially as we'll be late and parents will be leaving the site by that time). By the time we get there the eldest will be between 20 minutes to half an hour late to school. We'll then have to do this in reverse on a night and I'm guessing the teacher or TA in my youngest's school won't wait on for 30 minutes while I'm late to get him every single day!

The school drop off/ pick up will become a logistical nightmare with no choice but for us to be late for each school once a day - furthermore I work for myself and the idea of different inset days/ school plays/ school events is already making me want to cry.

Should I appeal on the grounds that the original allocation was 'a decision so outrageous in its defiance of logic that no sensible person who applied his mind to the question could have arrived at it?' (Wording taken from the appeal guidelines). Do you think I have a chance of success at appeal?

I assume that the reason he didn't get in is over subscription. Our admission criteria is:

1. looked after children and children with special educational needs
2. children in the PAA with siblings in the school
3. children in the PAA
4. children outside the PAA with siblings in the school
5. children outside the PAA

Our neighbours on the next street got their out of catchment sibling in the same school so I guess they were the last child to get in and we were the cut off

I didn't think of that MrsHathaway!

My two love breakfast and afterschool club so don't have any worries about your eldest going - they ask to go even on days they don't HAVE to.

That's not true that it's 'simpler' in Scotland.

We and a number of people we know made placement requests for our children to get them into the school we wanted.
It wasn't in our catchment area but after visiting it and the one they were supposed to go to, there was no contest! Plus all their friends from nursery were attending the new school too.
I just have to hope dd gets in next year but as it doesn't tend to me oversubscribed we should be ok.

I am afraid this is one of the issues that might arise when you choose to send children out of catchment. The elder may get in but there is no guarantee the next will.

I agree with the priority list - children in catchment should be prioritised to children outside of catchment, regardless of if they have siblings there or not. I assume the priority list was the same when the first child started too.

Best bet is to put your second child on school a's waiting list and check regularly - see where you are on the waiting lists the waiting list is usually done in order of the priority list. And look into whether there are spaces in the appropriate year group for your eldest child at school b - go on that waiting list too.

Check whether school has wrap around care.

I'm surprised by so many people saying "suck it up"

In a first world country we shouldn't have too! You should be outraged that this happens - that some schools are "better" than others - it shouldn't be like that!! That parents are dragging their kids all over to gain an education!

Schools aren't even admitting kids in their own catchment areas ffs - leaving kids in grey areas!

I don't think parents should suck it up - the LA should be better organised and know there local families needs - how many spaces needed - and sort the bloody mess out.

CodyKing - the government have stopped LAs from opening new schools - if an area needs more schools it looks like the government expect the parents to gather together and open a free school.

Cody - Oddboots is right. The LAs are powerless to open new schools. Near us two schools can not expand as there is no space left and one VA faith school refused due to lack of space. Any non academy, LA controlled schools with playing fields to use have lept from one form to three etc but they are not always schools people want or where they are needed, so people have to travel to them by car. It's a mess but has been brewing for a long time

That is terrible showofhands -Don't give up hope yet.
I have never heard of anything like this happening where I live - siblings are always first priority when allocating school places - seems crazy not to do it that way.

the government have stopped LAs from opening new schools

LAs are at liberty to open new schools. However, if they wish to do so they must find someone to run it for them as an academy. They cannot open new community schools.

Just to add to what Tiggytape said about "common sense".

In this context, common sense has to mean adhering to the admission appeals code, allowing those appeals that meet the criteria within the code and (sadly for the appellants) refusing the rest. When chairing appeals, I do understand that parents feel it would be common sense to admit their child, but generally (outside ICS cases, where the criteria are so narrow) the school will be arguing that it would be common sense not to. The panel has to weigh up those competing views and reach its decision.

More LAs are changing their criteria to siblings in catchment, catchment, siblings out of catchment. It's to give children a chance of getting into their own catchment school because many classes get filled up entirely with siblings.

seems crazy not to do it that way.

No what is crazy is having a village school where children who live in the village cant get in because of siblings. I don't disagree with this and it is like that here. It is why I sent dd1 to the less popular catchment school because I didnt need the stress of whether or not dd2 would get in. Choose to take the risk or not.

OP fingers crossed it works out for you. I think all the helpful advice has been given already.

I couldn't agree more tobysmum. Catchment places should be allocated on proximity to school. We got in, but I would have been quite peeved if we hadn't seeing as there seems to be more than a few children who come from the nearest town 5 miles away because our school is better than the in town one.

Not a dig at you OP, just at the incredibly stupid way our schools are managed. Of course schools will take children from anywhere if they have a small year/spaces just because of the way they are funded from the government (apologies if it has changed from my days as a finance governor and I am out of date).

At our last house, we couldn't get into our catchment school at all but the two alternatives were only 0.1 mile further and we had to drive there anyway (well we could have had a LA funded taxi, for one child (!) which felt completely wrong) so it was fine enough but at this house we can walk a mile or cycle which actually means we can sell one of our cars!

Do the teachers man the playground for your eldest from 8.45? Could you drop and dash to the other school?

Where I live it's catchment where you go - even as has happened - DD school has 3 reception classes - and the school a 5 minute walk away has 20 in one class - the next school has a reception class of 46 - split between two teachers in the morning and one in the afternoon -

It makes no sense when parents would happily move their children to even out the numbers -

It puts a huge strain on resources when the other s hook is larger - but the catchment is mainly expensive housing and smaller less family friendly houses - so few new families want to live there

Madness all round!!!

Yes tiggy, I agree that if you can't get dc1 into your catchment school and dc2 then doesn't get into the other one then that's very unfair. I think in the vast majority of cases though the parents have chosen that path and therefore knowingly taken the risk.

If a child who lived very close to you with a sibling got in you need to check distances. Put in a request for the distances of the children who have been admitted and measure your own distance. Second on the waiting list is very good, there will be movement between now and September, some people will have second choice or move or go private. Accept the place that you've been given. You might have to sit it out for a bit at two schools but talk to your older sons school about pick up drop off and to other parents they usually want to help. My eldest was allocated a school that we didn't want and we chose a different school for my youngest. We ended up getting bikes and cycling between the two as it was quicker and also using breakfast club when it rained. Oldest was at the wrong school for two years but they are now together at the right one. Stay strong it will work out in the end.

Show sounds like one or other of the schools needs to be 'forced' to provide the before/after school provision. Get onto your MP - see if you can get a petition going and talk to the school/s about this. There must be other people in the same position - or will be in the near future if people have moved/housing developments have gone up. Schooling is supposed to be considered in these matters, so you have very valid concerns that other people will share. Don't give up.

I really think this is starting to derail the thread but if siblings in catchment get in as C3 after looked after/ SEN then if you are in catchment your child will get into 99.5% of schools. If catchment has been changed round here siblings in the old catchment have also been treated as C3. It is siblings who aren't in catchment who don't get priority here.

So yes it entirely depends on where you live, and there will always be people who it doesn't work for and some scholl which has 10 places and 15 siblings in catchment one year, but that is pretty rare I think. Round here the sad faces in the local paper are all people who did not send their dc by choice to their catchment school.

Showofhands

I would definitely approach both schools about a breakfast club, it seems like it would be used by many families who would be in a similar situation - maybe try and find others who would use it and approach governors/pta

From what I remember the "siblings in catchment, catchment children, siblings out of catchment" order was devised to stop parents getting DC1 into the primary school then moving into the catchment for a good secondary school, safe in the knowledge that DC2 and DC3 would get in on DC1's coat tails just because they were siblings, whilst someone living in catchment couldn't get their DC1 in at all because places were going to siblings out of catchment, which makes sense.

Our child didn't get in to a local primary a few years ago and was placed on the waiting list. Over the next few months I was in regular contact with my local LEA to establish where he was on the waiting list, and I also appealed.

I spend around 120 hours reading all of the legislation for infant class size appeals including several government papers, which was extremely tedious and complicated. I also bought several books on how to appeal, and spent a considerable amount of time setting out our case. The whole process was more stressful than I had anticipated, and despite all of the work I felt the appeal panel weren't even listening.

You have no valid grounds for appeal, and are extremely unlikely to win. I do know of three families who have won infant class size appeals: two as they were able to prove the LEA had incorrectly measured the distance from their home to the school (they were closer than children who had been allocated a place); and the other as the LEA hadn't noticed that a (catchment) sibling was already at the school and had been noted on the family's application form.

There is plenty of time to get a place at the school where your older child is, as there is often quite a lot of movement with parents keeping a state place but going to an independent school. In my child's school there were around 6 movements, and he did get in. His place came up in July, as many parents weigh up their state offer and any independent schools offers. If they have an independent offer of a place, they will almost certainly already have paid a deposit. Some families leave this decision until the last minute.

As others have said, do accept the place you have been offered, and I would suggest your child starts in September at this school (if you don't get a place at your older child's school). If you delay the start date, and a place doesn't become available at your preferred school, your son will have missed up to a couple of terms of schooling (depending upon when his Birthday is). It also helps with establishing friendships.

If you do end up having to move your older son, (or younger son), the sooner the better. They are surprisingly adaptable at that age, so try not to worry too much.

One final consideration is whether you live in an area with separate infant and junior schools. This is the arrangement at some of our local schools. The year above my oldest child was a freak year, with around 8 out of catchment children getting into reception. As they were unlikely to make the transfer to the junior school with an influx of people into the area (catchment being the most important criteria), most of them moved to other local schools in Yr 2 anyway, in advance of the transfer in Yr 3 to juniors. The parents did this to secure a place at a school they were happy with, rather than wait until the junior transfer and get a place allocated at whichever school the LEA happened to have a place.

A difficult few months ahead & good luck!

Does the older one's school have a nursery? We were allocated a school miles away when we moved into our area but put our daughter into the nursery at our village school for a term instead. It's a gamble and a bit of a stressful wait but a place came up in the November and she started the village school in the January. She's a March birthday and that extra term in nursery has had no impact on her academic progress at all.