Our youngest didn't get into the same school as his 16 month older brother - can't split myself in two! - appeal?

[OhForFrigSake]

Ok, so my eldest son goes to a lovely village school jus outside of our catchment. We applied for his place and were surprised he got in last year.

This year his younger brother didn't get in - he has been allocated a school within our PAA.

The problem is, I cannot split myself in two to drop them both off at the same time. The eldest has just gone 5 and youngest not 4 yet - they're still young - I can't leave them waiting around the school to go in/ come out and wait without me there.

I've estimated that if I drop the youngest one off first at 9am (which makes sense as it's the closest school), I'll then need to get the eldest into the car, and 2 miles through the village (very congested - especially as we'll be late and parents will be leaving the site by that time). By the time we get there the eldest will be between 20 minutes to half an hour late to school. We'll then have to do this in reverse on a night and I'm guessing the teacher or TA in my youngest's school won't wait on for 30 minutes while I'm late to get him every single day!

The school drop off/ pick up will become a logistical nightmare with no choice but for us to be late for each school once a day - furthermore I work for myself and the idea of different inset days/ school plays/ school events is already making me want to cry.

Should I appeal on the grounds that the original allocation was 'a decision so outrageous in its defiance of logic that no sensible person who applied his mind to the question could have arrived at it?' (Wording taken from the appeal guidelines). Do you think I have a chance of success at appeal?

I assume that the reason he didn't get in is over subscription. Our admission criteria is:

1. looked after children and children with special educational needs
2. children in the PAA with siblings in the school
3. children in the PAA
4. children outside the PAA with siblings in the school
5. children outside the PAA

Our neighbours on the next street got their out of catchment sibling in the same school so I guess they were the last child to get in and we were the cut off

I would move your eldest tbh. We have just moved house and our local primary school was full but the LA said 'we will always make room for a catchment child', and they did.

So, you could move up, or, more worryingly, down. I wouldn't want them in different schools though. Not sure you can hedge your bets on this one.

You didn't stand a chance because your son's criteria was so far down the list.

Sorry, my first post came across much more heavy handed than I had intended.
Of course it was worth a try to apply, but I wouldn't have expected to get in, just as it was a pleasant surprise to get your eldest in, it would have been a surprise to get your youngest in.

Being 2nd on the waiting list does give you a good chance.
The person in first place may well go to another school and then remove themselves from the list (many parents stay on the list, and then once they have bought uniform, done induction day etc for the other school, they just accept that they are going to the other school)
Someone may move, someone may have asked for a place but is going to an indie.
You do stand a chance, but it may be worth asking the school how much movement they normally have. For example, in our school, there is a fairly high turnover, so most classes would have a child leave and a new one arrive within a school year.

Personally, if there is no chance of movement, I would move your eldest to the other school, unless it is a walking disaster.

If you have to stay in the allocated school, why can't you just start the school run 20 mins earlier? Plenty of other families have situations like lone parents, early work starts etc and manage to cope with earlier school runs or sharing rides with other kids' families.

Or maybe I'm missing something....

i'd be looking at moving the older one, for future ref the school has an idea around september/october how many children in the catchment so could have foreseen this happening.

good luck

If ALL the kids on your street go to the school, surely it'll be possible to come to an arrangement with one (or more) of the parents to take your eldest there and back? This is what people do in these difficult but far from uncommon situations where parents have to work and have trouble doing the schoolruns for many reasons.

Mrs Blimey - most schools will not allow you to leave KS1 children in the playground unaccompanied, so you have to stay with one or other child until their class goes in.

Actually, have you checked the times at both schools?
Our kids go in at 8:40 and are collected at 3:20. (except on Friday, where the school finishes at 1:30, but that is a whole other thread) Other schools near us have different times.

Sounds a nightmare, I think your only option is to move your son. You can look into sharing school runs etc, but you only have to look on here to see how quickly people get pee'd off with these set-ups. What will you do when they're on holiday? Sick? It can't work, really.

I think this should be made a lot clearer to people when they take a school place out of catchment, tbh. Can see this happening in our school - they had a bulge year, lots got in from out of catchment, but what will happen when their younger siblings don't get in?

Thank you for your helpful suggestions everyone. I don't really want to move my eldest son as he has settled in wonderfully (he didn't go to the nursery attached to the school so knew no one when he started) but has made lots of friends and loves the school. I'd be more likely to try and get the youngest in by fair means (either waiting list, or deferring start or even starting him at the second choice school and then moving him mid term if necessary).

I don't know if it'd be worth appealing as well - I know the LEA has applied the criteria correctly and we have fallen just after the cut off (as evidenced by being second on the waiting list) but just to check that my application had been treated correctly and that dept of education do caution LEAs to 'give consideration particularly to the needs of younger children at primary schools where parents have problems with transporting children placed at different schools.' Is it worth a wild try just in case?

You loose nothing by appealing, of course. But you do need to go in with your eyes open, in that you have a very small chance of winning.

(The appeal isn't the process by which you check your application was handled correctly though; you need to talk to the LA directly about that, and appeal if it becomes clear they got something wrong (e.g your distance to school).) The DoE statement is irrelevant, as discussed earlier.

just remember, whatever you do, accept the place you have. You can always let them know you aren't taking it up later.
Accepting the place you have still allows you to be on the waiting list, and to appeal if you want. (personally I don't think the caution to LEA really applies in your case, so I don't think you have ground sot appeal)

I don't want to give myself a tonne of stress for no reason - if we have NO chance of success. That said my eldest son's class teacher and the head teacher both suggested I appeal. (I just happened to bump into the head on the way out of school while I was still in shock). Do people just say this to shut you up?

We were 2nd on the waiting list for a school last year and did get offered a place a few weeks in - one of the children given a place was found to live at a different address than had been claimed and the other on the waiting list took up the school they had first been allocated. There is hope!

Thanks Isla and Tiggy - I think I will go ahead and appeal, even if it's futile as I have nothing to lose. I'm on the waiting list so even if my appeal fails (which sounds likely given the response I've had on here) we may edge in anyway, given a fair wind! Otherwise I guess he's starting at school number 2 with a whole load of logistical juggling - whether that be pricey after or before school clubs that I can't afford or scrounging lifts off neighbours. Will make family life very difficult but I guess that's life.

Just out of curiosity, what happens if your youngest settles really well at his school? You've said you don't want to move your eldest but you will move your youngest?

Application numbers for small, rural schools can vary wildly from year to year. At DS's school 25 started his reception year, the year after they only had 12 applications. The following year it had 31 applications - and only 29 started in the end so obviously two applicants went elsewhere in the end. You may be this lucky too.

It was a risk you took when you sent your first son out of catchment. My son's school is out of catchment and we are risking him not being able to get into the middle school with his mates (three tier system). He would have to transfer into Y5 of a primary school in our two tier catchment if he doesn't get in.

Fingers crossed it turns out ok for you and us

A friend had similar - were 7th on the list with a sibling. some took up places in a local church school, two were out of catchment (not at the given address) and one moved - so it's not hopeless

At least if you appeal they know you want a place and prepared to try.

See if you can figure out who are numbers 1, 3 &4 on the list as they will also be "sibling rejects" and decent odds that one will live pretty close and you'll be able to share lifts.

Diggers, but my eldest son will have done 1 and a bit years at his new school, the youngest would have done less time and presumably therefore be less settled. There's no easy answer though obviously. I don't want to move either of them ideally which is why I hope to get in via appeal or the waiting list.

Two parents in son's class do this - one of them has to leave about 20 mins before the class go in and the other parent doesn't drive. So parent A drives both of them to school and picks up, parent B stays in the playground with the children before and after school (parent A works 9am to 3pm just down the road so is 20 mins early and 20 mins late).

I would really recommend you talk to both schools and explain your situation and ask if it is allowed for children to be dropped off 20 mins early and wait in office or breakfast club till line up. You should also ask what time the school gate/playground is supervised. At ours it is 15 mins before the bell, and many parents drop off children then and leave them in the playground in their class lines (we have set lining up places).

Do accept the place for youngest though, just in case. And if it is possible, defer his start until the term after he turns 5 or the summer term.

But OP your elder son has done the same amount of time now as your youngest will have done later down the road...your arguments for not moving your eldest don't stack up

I was in a similar position last year OP. My son was one of 6 children in the village (in the catchment area) who didn't get a place at our village school. It was the first time it had ever happened in our village. We all appealed and one won their appeal on the grounds of the mother's health. Everyone else lost their appeals. I had letters from my son's GP setting out his separation anxiety issues and why it was so important for him to go to that specific school, detailing the difficulties with childcare, detailing how disruption to his routine causes night waking, deterioration in behaviour etc. They didn't consider any of it, they just weren't interested. He's at the school they allocated, now second on the waiting list for our village school (having been 5th this time last year). We've since moved house, even closer to the school but they won't consider our new address.

Honestly, if you're out of catchment then I think you'll struggle at appeal. Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear. I didn't want to hear it last year.

If you do decide to appeal, make sure you read all the guidance and legislation to give yourself the best chance of convincing the LEA that you know what you're talking about. Best of luck with it all, it's an awful position to be in. A year on, I'm still not over it (although I am fully aware I need to get a grip!).