Our youngest didn't get into the same school as his 16 month older brother - can't split myself in two! - appeal?

[OhForFrigSake]

Ok, so my eldest son goes to a lovely village school jus outside of our catchment. We applied for his place and were surprised he got in last year.

This year his younger brother didn't get in - he has been allocated a school within our PAA.

The problem is, I cannot split myself in two to drop them both off at the same time. The eldest has just gone 5 and youngest not 4 yet - they're still young - I can't leave them waiting around the school to go in/ come out and wait without me there.

I've estimated that if I drop the youngest one off first at 9am (which makes sense as it's the closest school), I'll then need to get the eldest into the car, and 2 miles through the village (very congested - especially as we'll be late and parents will be leaving the site by that time). By the time we get there the eldest will be between 20 minutes to half an hour late to school. We'll then have to do this in reverse on a night and I'm guessing the teacher or TA in my youngest's school won't wait on for 30 minutes while I'm late to get him every single day!

The school drop off/ pick up will become a logistical nightmare with no choice but for us to be late for each school once a day - furthermore I work for myself and the idea of different inset days/ school plays/ school events is already making me want to cry.

Should I appeal on the grounds that the original allocation was 'a decision so outrageous in its defiance of logic that no sensible person who applied his mind to the question could have arrived at it?' (Wording taken from the appeal guidelines). Do you think I have a chance of success at appeal?

I assume that the reason he didn't get in is over subscription. Our admission criteria is:

1. looked after children and children with special educational needs
2. children in the PAA with siblings in the school
3. children in the PAA
4. children outside the PAA with siblings in the school
5. children outside the PAA

Our neighbours on the next street got their out of catchment sibling in the same school so I guess they were the last child to get in and we were the cut off

Patricia - I did know the admission criteria however as its a tiny village I assumed (clearly wrongly) that it wouldn't be oversubscribed in this year group. Just for context ALL the children on my street attend this school, despite the street being outside of our PAA.

Can you let me know how I can check our position on the waiting list - or get added to it!

Phone the schools and get your children on the waiting lists. Is your eldest son's school your preferred school?

Ring the LEA about the waiting list. They will be able to tell you whether they run it or the school do. (You may struggle to get through today though of course!)

Yes- the school our eldest son is in would be our preferred choice for both boys

Is there no breakfast club at your eldest son's school? You can't have either child be late every day, I'm afraid.

Or come to an arrangement with another parent - paying them appropriately?

Does the school have full class sizes of 30, or does it have a smaller PAN? i.e. will the class be full at 30 kids (in which case Infant Class Size appeal will be almost impossible to win) or is it just a case of admitting over the PAN (e.g. taking a class of 20 to 21) which would be possible if the headteacher/school supported you.

Longer term, both DC on waiting lists for each other's schools.

Aprilanne I'm in rural Scotland and I know lots of parents that put in placing requests. It is not as simple as you make out. My friend is in the exact same situation as the OP.

I would ask about the waiting list and if that doesn't give you hope move your children to a school that they can both get into.

You really don't think splitting myself in two twice a day and being 30 minutes late for drop off or pick up are a logistical difficulty? Yes, it's a logistical difficulty, but it's one that many parents face and are expected to solve. As the quote PatriciaHolm posted above shows, it's very unlikely to be seen as a reason to admit a child in an infant class size appeal.

I work in a junior school and one year we had three children whose younger siblings didn't get into the linked infant school, and they waited in our reception area until their parents had picked up the younger sibling from the school they had been allocated, and one of them was there in the morning too. Can you ask your older child's school whether they may be able to do something like this? Also, there may be other parents in a similar situation that you could share lifts with, one doing one school and one the other - see if there's a Facebook page for new children at either school - there's a lot of FB groups being set up today for new pupils at many schools.

I know they can't be late which is why it seems impossible at the moment. There is a breakfast club I think but paying for it would be difficult as I am self employed and money is tight at the moment so not ideal.

Class size is 30, however I do know that a pupil was admitted to my eldest son's class as an exception last year (he is pupil 31) so it has happened before.

If they admitted to 31 lat year, that would be because other a) child fitted specific legal criteria of needing to be educated there e.g. special educational reasons) or b) the admissions criteria had been wrongly applied in the first place to exclude them e.g. they should have been Child 29 on distance/sibling rule or whatever but it was miscalculated.

So unless you can show the admissions criteria were wrongly applied in your case, you are unlikely to succeed just on logistical grounds. Put your name down for breakfast club/afterschool club asap.

Rusty - I guess this might be possible but given that my eldest is only 5 I don't know how comfortable I'd feel dropping him off early or picking him up late and expecting him to wait around - although if he was properly supervised that'd be ok.

Have just rung LAA and my son is 2nd on the waiting list (runs until December). Have no idea how likely this is to come of anything.

As a PP said, we can see it's difficult for you but you were surprised to get your first child in last year so it must have crossed your mind that you might not get the second in. The school have correctly applied the criteria so I don't see how you can appeal, unfortunately.

Hang on for a bit - there might be some movement if parents turn down their offer in favour of a different one. Your son is 2nd on the list, which is positive.

Not really Costwold, it's probably naive of me but literally ALL the children on my street attend this school despite us being slightly out of the PAA so given that my son got in last year, I assumed his brother would be ok this year. I do understand that on reflection I was probably overly optimistic but it still doesn't stop me from being worried now as to how we can make this situation work for our family.

Thanks Isla, but the village is so small and there's only one reception class - 30 children so I'm not feeling particularly optimistic about 2 of those children dropping out. Could happen though I guess?

Lucsy - yes, that's possible! Fingers crossed then

One option is to put both on waiting lists for other ones school and wait it out. Hopefully a place will come up at one of the schools so both can be together.

The little one doesn't need to be in full time education until term after 5 so you can defer his place whilstyou wait and keep him in nursery.

It was always a risk unfortunately. A lot more schools are stopping prioritising out of catchment siblings to stop people moving/renting to get the first one in then getting siblings in ahead of more local children.

I would check the distance of the last child admitted, what distance they have for you to make sure it's correct and presumably there should have been no one admitted from the last category. Then hope the waiting list comes up with something.

You sounds like I expect some of our out of catchment parents will feel today.

Unfortunately 2012 in our area at least was a high birth year. Several families have moved into the catchment area for our school which removed the given that any child out of cachet would be given a place - small school. Many parents choose it from just over the county border as its now the closest school since theirs closed.

I don't think you've been wrongly allocated as in catchment single children have rightly been given priority over the sibling of an out of catchment pupil.

Logistically yes, it's a nightmare. You know you are only number 2. Lots of changes/moves can happen between now and December. Equally, I assume you may go down the list of someone in catchment moves in.

I am really sorry, but according to that admissions criteria, you didn't stand a chance, and really you have brought this on yourself.

I am not trying to be mean, but you applied to a school that you didn't stand a chance of getting into. Also, unless they have changed the admissions criteria since your eldest started, then you already knew that at the point you applied for him.

Why should your younger son get a place ahead of a child who lives within the catchment of the school?

You have several choices:

-appeal (but you have no grounds, and parent transport doesn't count)
-find a childminder/school club/parent who can do drop of and pick up for one child
-move your older son (really he would be fine, moving schools isn't such a big deal)

• go on the waiting list and don't send your son in (home ed) until a place comes up (this may be before sept, or may not be till year 1 or 2)

-send your son to his offered school, and stay on waiting list for the other school, and move him when it comes up.

Whatever you do, unless you have made a definite decision to home ed, you MUST ACCEPT the place you have been offered, otherwise you will be in a worse situation down the line.

To be fair, if you were to move your eldest ds, he is only in reception class, not year 6, where it would be a more traumatic move. Children do adapt very quickly, we often don't give them much credit for this, and actually when you weigh it up, what would be best? Going to two schools or going to one school?

Why didn't I stand a chance? I live 30 yards away from a sibling who got in. As I said ALL of the children on my street go to the school so it's not out side the boundaries of possibility that we could have got in too? My eldest got in last year despite being lower down the list of priorities (with no sibling at the school).

I do understand what you're saying about the criteria - and there has to be a cut off somewhere! - but how can I be sure that everyone who got in live closer to the school or that the criteria were correctly applied?

We are on the waiting list (2nd) so maybe it's a case of keeping our fingers crossed for some drop outs?

Our village prioritises children in the parish over siblings out of it - it's absolutely the fairest way and I know of at least 2 families who moved into the village after unexpectedly getting a place for the elder child to ensure the following sibling also got a place.

At 2 on the waiting list its possible you'll get a place, our little village school has had quite a turnover of children as parents move in and out of the area.

You should get a letter in a few days time stating why you didn't get a place, which may say the furthest distance admitted in the relevant criteria (so you can check that you fall outside it) and state which criteria you were considered under. If it doesn't, you can call the LA and ask them to tell you.

The LEA/school aren't going to tell you where everyone who got in lives, but you can check that they have the correct address and information for you, and that they considered you under the correct category.

Given you are 2nd on the waiting list, it would suggest that there hasn't been a big error and it's just the case that there were a couple more siblings/people living closer than you this time round.