Primary School offered, not possible, how likely would an appeal be successful.

[LeeandEmma88]

Hello all,

We have read this forum many times but our situation has led to us feeling the need to create an account for advice.

This isn't the typical "We didn't get our preferred school, but it is a good school so can I appeal" post, so please bear with me whilst we explain.

My family has lived in the area of our preferred primary school now for 10 years, with us being located here for 5. The reason we moved to the area was solely for this primary school. We have had our Son's name on the school list since 2013 when he was approximately 10 months old, he is now 3 years and 8 months old and will be starting school this September 2016.

My wife and I work full time jobs and these jobs are unfortunately located out of the area, my wife working 1 hour from home and myself working 30 minutes away.
We also have a 9 month old baby who will be starting daycare in September of this year. This leads us to a bit of an issue, in regards to dropping off children.

It would not be possible for my wife to drop off our baby at daycare, our son at school and then travel to work. she has tried to go part time and drop morning hours but to drop off both and get to work is just too much, leaving her approx an hour late each day.
It is not possible for myself to drop hours as I am a manager at work and have several employees under my sole responsibility. I have to be at work when they are so to say.

This means we need assistance, which comes from my Mother. She is retired but does not drive, she lives on the same road as us meaning both the preferred school and our house are walking distance (she actually has to pass our house to get to the school).

Now we haven't been offered a place at either of our 2 local and preferred schools, which in normal circumstances I would just put it down to over-subscription and learn to live with it. But since January 2016 when the application process was closed my Father has taken ill in health meaning he requires full care which is provided by my Mother.

My wife's employer has agreed to shorten her hours on 2 days meaning she can drop off and collect (based on the thought we would have gotten our preferred school) leaving my Mother to drop off and collect the remaining 3 days of the school week. Now my mother doesn't drive as mentioned earlier so needs a school in walking distance (she cannot leave my Father for a length of time) this leaves two schools, both which were on our application. The 1st choice is 0.3 miles and takes 6 minutes to walk, the 2nd choice we had is 0.6 miles and takes 15 minutes to walk, now the offered choice which we didn't even know existed is 1.8 miles away and takes 45 minutes to walk (these times are one-way not round trips). The choice given would take 4 hours walking time per day to drop off and collect for my Mother, this is not even a possibility due to my Father's health.

We know the preferred school has 30 placements up for grabs and half of these have been filled with siblings, this leaves around 15 places to fill with other criteria. We live 0.3 miles away and can walk to the school within 6 minutes, not many people at all live closer than us, the reason we chose this address. Where do you lot think we would stand with an appeal taking all of the above into consideration?

We would be taking all my Father's medical history to any appeal, along with work contracts to show hours etc as we really feel we should have been offered a place at one of the 2 schools. We also have to take into account though, that the local council do not know of my Father's ill health as it has all happened 'after' the application process. We honestly thought luck would be well within our side as we live so close to the school (we can just about see it from our house) but this isn't the case obviously.

Any help or advice is appreciated.

In your position, I would appeal. We applied to some schools that required sif firms and these were all obtained by download from the school website or handed out on open evenings. The school information is misleading as the school website admissions section was where we went for all the details.
On the other hand, I applied online via eadmissions and in the application it was clearly noted that those schools required sif forms and where to get them.

Mouldy - it implies that the clergy do it if you are not savvy in my opinion.
Tiggy - I also know of a friend on London/Kent border who was stood outside their new school on Day 1 when three families of non UK origin turned up with DC in full uniform to register them for their first day at school. They had been oblivious to any process at all and did what was normal for them.

I agree with Admission and Lougle.

An appeal panel will no doubt be sympathetic but unable to help you. Very many people have to use childminders or do swaps with other parents to manage the school and nursery run.

Actually, having seen just how misleading the school's website information is, I think you might as well try an appeal.

A friend's child successfully appealed for secondary two years back. They lived very close, attended the right feeder primary etc etc, but no one had ever mentioned to them that as they lived a few yards the wrong side of a county boundary, they should have applied (to the same school!) via that county, not the one where the school was based. The secondary's open evening had certainly never mentioned this, and I believe that formed part of their appeal.

In their case, though, they were left without a school at all because of this error, so I wouldn't hold out too much hope.

At least the school offered is under two miles and half an hour away. You'll find a way to cope.

How old will your younger child be by September 2017?
I'm just thinking about the 30 hours of free childcare that will allegedly be rolled out then. Although it won't help your son's present situation, the cost of childcare may be less than you think, thus enabling you to hire a childminder to drop your son at school.
Alternatively, does the offered school have a breakfast club?

It's not very helpful to make comparisons with secondary school appeals.

The appeal here will be an infant class size appeal, where the panel has far less discretion. If the panel abides by the admissions appeal code, the appeal can succeed only if there's been a mistake that has deprived the child of a place, the over subscription criteria do not comply with the admissions code or the refusal of a place was so unreasonable that it must be overturned.

It seems to me that the only argument here that has any 'mileage' is whether having out of date information on the school's website is a mistake within the meaning of the appeals code. I doubt that it is, assuming that the LEA has produced a school admissions booklet and has more information on its own website. The system does have pretty high expectations of what parents should find out and check for themselves and the "but nobody told me" line of argument doesn't usually get anywhere.

All this stuff about having gone to church briefly is, I think, a red herring. Going to church for a couple of months and then stopping will probably look to the panel like a cynical attempt to play the system, unless there's evidence of some huge change in personal circumstances that made going to church impossible. Even then, the panel can't do much about it, because they have to consider whether the published criteria have been correctly applied, not whether the patent could have complied with the criteria had circumstances been different.

There's nothing to be lost by appealing, but be aware of how limited the scope is for winning an ICS appeal and draw up a contingency plan for losing.

...... the "but nobody told me" line of argument doesn't usually get anywhere ...

I think the problem, from the OPs point of view was that 'somebody' DID tell him but they told him wrong.

But your son being a summer born, I would defer entry until September 2017 IF it is impossible for you both to maintain your working commitments and the education of your son.

Would that work now, though?

I don't know what the policies are like where OP lives.
But where I live, the admissions guidelines say that parents wanting to defer a year should make an application for deferral at the same time they make applications for reception. Idea being that if application for deferral is agreed, reception application is withdrawn, parents reapply for the next academic year. If application for deferral is rejected, the application for reception continues as normal and a school place is allocated.

They ask for evidence of why deferral is in the child's best interests - they say that evidence from professionals isn't essential to apply for deferral as they have to consider the request anyway, but they also say that evidence from professionals should be submitted if you have it e.g. if a child is receiving support from a speech and language therapist. I'm guessing that a parent who does have support and evidence from health or educational professionals for deferral has a much better chance of getting it. Presumably "the offered school is inconvenient and we won't be able to drop son off on time and get to work on time, so we want another go at reception applications" isn't an acceptable argument for deferral.

The wording also suggests that the council need the school the child will attend to agree to the deferral before the council agree.

The OP could of course keep his son off school till September 2017 anyway, as his son is August born. But without an agreement to defer from the council, he'd be in the position of having to make an in-year application to get his son a place somewhere as a Year 1 pupil.

I wonder what happens to the children who turn up on the first day with the parents not having realised they need to make an application. (Eg. Due to language barrier and no need for an application in their own country ) I guess if the school is oversubscribed they get sent home.

My LA went to an on-line only application system this time. We have many families whose 1st language is not English, and also many native English speakers with poor literacy skills, so we are expecting many ICS appeals. Ideally there would be someone in each nursery who understood the admission process, and could help fill in the application for those who need help, but that's unlikely ever to happen. The info, whether on-line or in the booklet, can be pretty daunting for people who are unused to reading fairly complex texts.

I apologise for giving OP false hope with that article link. We attended an open day at a free school that told parents this was an option and I mistakenly assumed it was now law. It looks like it was just the free school implementing the procedure outlined in the open letter, as they're not restricted by the local authority.

Although I have huge sympathy for the OP, it is NOT the school's responsibility to have up to date info on their websites because you do not apply to the school directly. It is not their application process and they are not accountable if they give you wrong information. We attended about 10 different open days/tours to date and every single time - school stressed it was up to the parents to follow latest instructions on council applications and they were happy to answer any questions or confusions best they could... But ultimately it is an application to the local authority the parents are filling out. This was stressed over and over. And our local catholic even said it didn't matter if you had a hotline to the pope once the deadline has passed and you didn't submit the right evidence... While the school would be very impressed with that call, it wouldn't sway an appeal with local authority who made the actual decisions.

Ha ha at school would be very impressed with that call.

OP, you were asking what your chances are of getting your ds into this school at a later date. Call the school and ask if they can tell you how many children typically move in a year. If they can't, try and find parents of children currently attending and ask them. It is the 11th best primary in the country, I would imagine none. In this case, there is no chance before year 3. Even then, the school does not have to create a place, even if they would be allowed. Parents will take long commutes for such a good school if they move away.

Our school is outstanding (but nowhere near as successful as this one) and there is virtually no movement, even though the parents often move away in later years.

Oh yes - also ask if there is any movement on waiting list between now and September. If the school is a second choice for some, they may accept the place and be on a waiting list for their first choice (let's say school Y). If they get a place at Y before septembeř, they will then decline their existing place at your prefered school. Some schools have 1-2 places shift in next 3-4 months while others have 5-6 places (for example).

I think it would be worth trying for an appeal on the basis that the logical place to look was the school website, and that policy listed there impacted your decision as to which schools to apply for. It also doesn't say that you have to supply the evidence of baptism either.

In the meantime, as a manager you ought to be able to set an example in demonstrating flexibility. Arrange to do some of the school runs yourself, explain to your team why, and tell them that they can have the same flexibility as long as the work gets done. I appreciate that this might depend on the nature of the work you are in - but really too many companies are stuck in insisting people be in the office for rigid hours, and fail to appreciate that some flexibility goes a long way to improving staff morale, loyalty and productivity.

Which school have you been offered OP? The Stoneclough schools are massively oversubscribed because they are very good and they've also built rather a lot of houses in the area but, up the road in Farnworth/Kearsley the school provision is very good, in terms of numbers. It isn't necessarily that they are under subscribed. Most are at least Ofsted good and some outstanding.

I would appeal.anyway. We did last year as our daughter didn't get into our 1st choice even though our son already went there. We live out of catchment but as our son got in ok we thought our daughter would too! Anyway, seems that the LEA had decided to be stricter with the intake in our daughters year. We appealed on the basis that that it would be a complete and utter arse to have 2 children at 2 different schools and we won 😊 the retired headteacher who made the final decision said the LEA were being ridiculous and if the school had taken in extra children for the preceding 5 years then they could do it this year as well. So its worth a try!

I'd appeal on the basis of the school's website. I'd also clarify what category you were placed in.

In the meantime, as a manager you ought to be able to set an example in demonstrating flexibility. Arrange to do some of the school runs yourself, explain to your team why, and tell them that they can have the same flexibility as long as the work gets done.

^This for starters.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/2617330-Would-someone-mind-helping-me-with-my-appeal is a thread about an LA school with community criteria and a school website that was out of date (with info that did not match the council info).

The consensus there was that this is not grounds to appeal, as they would have applied anyhow (something that OP here clearly would have done as it was a long desired school).

I thought the elder siblings who is still in the school when the younger sibling starts and who was offered a place within catchment area then the younger siblings get priority(and the family is still living in the same place) Is it not the case anymore?

Surely the previous case discussed on the thread mentioned above is different as that wouldn't have affected the choices made by the OP however in this case the OP would have acted differently IF the information on the school website was correct.
If the information was correct then the OP would have known that they would have had to attend church rather than just rely on the fact the DC were baptized at the correct church.

The op isn't in the catchment of the school he wants, so he comes below anyone in catchment.

Sorry forget what i said. I think I'm getting mixed up with another thread. (Confused.)