Children told off after Nativity.

[Sweetsecret]

Hi everyone,
Just need a bit of a rant etc.
Went to my dd''s year one Nativity last night.
It was fab, all the kids had a great time and the parents all enjoyed it.
Until... the kids came back out of their classroom after getting changed out of their costume with a lot of them crying and most of them looking quite deflated.
Apparently their teacher had given them a really big telling off saying their behaviour was disgusting, ' that your parents may let you behave the way you want to, but I am your teacher and I have never had a year 1 as bad as you!" She singled out a few children who were on the "good list" and the rest of the class were told that she was disgusted with them and that they are now banned from doing any Xmas activities for the rest of the week.
I sat and watched the play and the kids were amazing, they sang their songs really well and did their reading and considering 12 kids didn't actually turn up and they had to cover their lines they did amazingly well.
We didn't finish until 7pm, so after a long day at school they did brilliantly, all of them.
It has just left a really bad taste in my mouth.
My Dd (5) came home and said I wasn't good in the play tonight, miss xxxxx said so.
Is it me or is this really uncalled for?

Just read the entire thread and my impression is that that class with never again enjoy going on stage, I hope I am wrong. And I can't help wondering what the purpose of these events are? Are they so that a good time can be had by all? Or to teach the children something important or what? Personally I would have thought that the most important thing would be for everyone to enjoy it, which might mean that one or another child would need to be taken aside and talked to if they were ruining it for everyone, but not the kind of treatment the teacher.

Despite the apology, despite the reinstatement of the party, the person who most worries me is the HT and I really think it would be a good idea to look for a better school. I worked as substitute teacher in a few private school and I came away with the impression that the HT sets the tone of a school. As a consequence I chose my dd's school on the basis of a very kind and loving HT and she had a wonderful experience.

Now I will generally back whatever the teacher says, as they know what they are doing and are the ones dealing with my kids all week. This was a bit harsh though.

I think that having an evening performance was rather optimistic anyway, considering their ages. I remember DS1 doing an afternoon nativity and an evening one in the same week. Afternoon one - perfectly behaved. Evening one - he was shattered, fidgeted and talked all the way through, sat down on the stage and refused to even say his two lines, curled up on the TA's lap and pretended to snore, and the Head had to physically drag him by his armpits out of the hall afterwards. I was mortified but his teacher and the Head were both lovely and said 'Bless him, he's still only little'. It finished after his bedtime!

That would be the reaction I would expect from a teacher, not going ape at them over a tiny bit of chatting. I can't imagine the kids are looking forward to the rest of the week now, which won't exactly improve their behaviour, will it?

Children have fewer rights than adults? That's a shocking thing to say....

The HT would worry me. Is she new?

Telling parents their 5 year old needs to 'toughen up as its a cruel world out there' is bizarre and concerning.

It was a late performance, the children's behaviour wasn't great but that could be anticipated when they were going to be tired.

Wheels said some teachers think children have less rights no one has actually said they have fewer rights.

I don't think most parents would allow their five year old child to decide what they eat (only sweets), what time they go to bed, when they get up, if they go to school, if they criss the road alone, if they go to the park alone, what programmes are suitable on to etc etc ...is it because they have fewer rights? Or is it because they are just five and have lots to learn about being safe and healthy?

Boden. Well let's see. You had better sit down... I have some "shocking" things to tell you.

Children don't have the right to vote.

Children don't have the right to marry.
Children don't have the right to deregister themselves from school.

Children don't have the right to live alone.
Children don't have a right to have a driving licence or drive a car in public.
Children don't have a right to give their consent to get their ears pierced or have a tattoo or medical treatment.

Children do not have the right to sue.
Children do not have the right to own a company or a house.

They do have a right to protection and to education and lots of other things that adults don't have a right to. Are you shocked that children live within a different framework to adults?

Well this escalated quickly.

I think some of the teachers here are being a bit quick to take offence. PP did make it pretty clear she was talking about the teachers she'd had dealings with personally, and in particular with regards to her DS being bullied.
Threads like this make me appreciate the DC's school all the more.

hownot that's not the case. The post at 15:05 was 6 lines long. The first 2 lines were specific, the following 4 were general - about teachers in general. Sweeping generalisations are irritating, yes.

I gave my opinion, at 15.05, which apparently consisted of:
"The first 2 lines were specific, the following 4 were general - about teachers in general. Sweeping generalisations are irritating, yes."

It shows as 3 lines on my screen so I'd need to work out which of my lines offended you so much? Yet, I do know - it is okay to describe personal experience negatively (another poster refers to an old HT as 'a bitch') but not to make 'sweeping generalisations'. But, they are part of life and if you think 5 year olds need to toughen up how can you possibly boo-hoo about this?

"I think some of the teachers here are being a bit quick to take offence. "

Just a lot, yes ... pur wee snowflakes...

Finding something "irritating" is not quite the same as "offending...so much".

You're free to make as many generalisations as you like - if that's how you find it best to express yourself. I'm no snowflake ("pur" or otherwise.).

oooh OP, you have broken the mnet golden rule, saying something against a teacher!!!

persinally i would be complaining to the head, what a shitty thing to do.

Oh far from it, OP - you are not alone!

There are hundreds of threads where people pile on Lividing and Appalleding over the tiniest of things. There was one just a couple of days ago - hundreds of outraged posts about cruel and negligent teachers - it was all resolved very pleasantly but only a handful returned to say how pleased they were.

Perhaps only a handful ARE pleased though?

Could be that those who shout loudest etc,
but it could just be that more people are dissatisfied with the teaching their children receive than you think?

In general.

Yes - I think a very high percentage of people are dissatisfied and delight in hearing bad news. In years to come it will only get worse and the profession decimates further.

persinally i would be complaining to the head, what a shitty thing to do

Good idea, OP - do that and let us know!

Or maybe the PP could just RTFT?

I suspected the party would go ahead anyway, as I posted before. Not in favour of empty threats, personally - and it's not one I would have chosen to make/carry out, either.

Wheelofapps, anyone still left in a profession which has people leaving in droves within 5 years is by definition not a 'pur wee snowflake'. Your suggestion that I am not perhaps suited to the profession made me roll my eyes, not run off weeping!

Iguana

I do think a higher proportion of parents are dissatisfied with their children's educational provision than one might think, and certainly more than should be the case.

They then tend to speak of their experiences on parenting forums. Sometimes people also 'generalise' (perhaps they've had less than good experiences at more than one school?)
I'm not sure many 'delight in hearing bad news' though?
Bad news re the teaching profession is bad news for our kids, so no delight there (certainly not from me, anyway).

Teachers on forums then get defensive.
They point out there is little support from Govt (true, but many other professions get 'little support' too).

They point out that the Curriculum is forever being messed with - often for political reasons. True enough.

Perhaps some parents are not supportive of their individual children's Schools?

But there ARE some rubbish teachers out there, as well as some outstanding ones, and a whole lot more in the 'middle' as it were. Just like any other profession.
Parents need to be allowed to say this, and the Profession should be able to hear it (whilst 'rolling their eyes', clearly! :)

These are our children you have in your hands. You are employed to do a 'good enough' job of teaching them, not just phonics and Math, but also about fairness, kindness and honesty. How to behave in the world in a positive way to contribute to society.

To encourage good behaviour - respect for others, and self respect.
Which doesn't include telling 5 year olds you are 'disgusted' with them, imo.
Or dividing them into 'good' and 'bad' children. Or telling them 'Santa wont come' (diff thread, but springs to mind).
That is lazy and negative teaching practice, which the OP has every right to call out.

Great post, wheelofapps.

Interesting you agree that it is the teachers responsibility to promote good behaviour now we need to discover what action you think they should take when pupils don't behaviour appropriately.

I have great respect for you, mrz, but now I started to feel like you are just trying to find a tiny detail on the post and turning it into something completely different.

Of course promote good behaviour is mostly parents' responsibility, as well as partially teachers when children are at school.

Irvine I'm just trying to work out what wheels actually wants ... Either teachers are legally responsible (teachers act in loco parentis) and discipline children when their behaviour is inappropriate or ...

I have followed the whole thread from the start. I didn't see it as wheelofapps was trying to say that teachers should not discipline children when their behaviour is inappropriate. I don't think anyone (or most people) in this thread meant to say that. Only that they didn't agree with the type of method chosen in this case. An "empty threat" like Feenie called it, which ends up not being effective at the end as what kind of message do the children get when they get to the go to the party after having been told they were not going to.

If their behaviour was inappropriate, they should have been told that it was, and a better way of disciplining chosen. As it is, the teacher later admitted she was wrong in her choice of words, and that the timing had been wrong. Maybe the timing would not have been necessarily wrong (it is probably better to say to a child that the behaviour is wrong in the moment and get a consequence soon after that that can be connected, rather than leaving it for much later on), but if different words and a more empathetic way of delivering the same message had been used. I'm sure the teacher will act different the next time a similar situation presents, we are all humans, and the best thing to do now is learn and always think of better ways of managing situations more effectively.

On another note, I read the post from wheelofapps at 15:05, and didn't perceive it to be a sweeping generalisation to include all teachers, as she said "somehow, some teachers". I can see from her words that her experience with teachers has not been ideal, and that she and her child have encountered difficult situations that include "rampant bullying" and probably many teachers and head teacher at her school have not been supportive enough or have not been able to manage the situation as best as possible. But that is not to say it is the case in all schools, and for all teachers. And she clearly said "some teachers."

It is probably true that most parents are quick to dicuss in these forums the problems they have with their schools and teachers, looking for advice, or someone that has been in a similar situation. And that those posts probably outnumber the ones from parents who are actually happy with their school. I understand it must be disheartening for teachers to keep seeing that. But I am one of those parents who are truly happy with the teachers my son has had. And every time I post in here, I have only praise for his school and the way his teachers have taught him and contributed for him to be the person his is now working with us his parents as a team. I wish I could make generalisations and say that all teachers and schools are like his because that is the experience I have had, but I know I can't, and have to respect and accept that there might be teachers that act differently based on what other people's experiences tell me on here. Sorry for the long post!

Surely even the people who are now working as teachers have had experience of good and bad teachers. I have so much admiration for good teachers, but some people are just in the wrong profession or at least should not be teaching such young children.

I'm a parent and a teacher as are many of the posters on MN (something some posters seem to ignore or perhaps don't understand, people can be both) and opinions expressed reflect both roles.

I'm wondering whether what was behind this was the head piling pressure on the teachers about the behaviour of their classes. It certainly sounds like her attitude to behavioural issues is a whole lot more unrealistic than her staff's.