What state primaries in London to get into top private secondaries?

[newbieLdn]

We’re thinking of buying a house in London within a year or two. Baby's on the way, hopefully followed by second at some point.

We’d love for the kids to eventually go to Oxbridge, but will not really have the money for top-class private education for both kids for the whole 14 years. Or put it differently, even if we do think we have the money now, we may not have it in the future. We figured it’d be more sensible to put aside some funds for really good secondaries in the future, and in the short term, buy a property in a catchment area of a really good primary. This is, at the moment, the best we can afford. I’d definitely want to avoid the kids the trauma of being taken out of a good private school that they already got used to because daddy can now no longer pay the tuition fees, etc.

Initially, we thought they’d go to really good state primaries and secondaries; but looking at Oxbridge acceptance rates, it seems that all the top schools are private, at least in London and South East they are…

Does our plan sound sensible? I want to stress we’re both quite academically-oriented, and will always strive to help kids with homework, read them stories at bedtime, etc.

A friend of mine insists that at the top secondaries (the likes of Eton, Westminster, St Pauls) majority of students come from private primary schools, ideally – a prep school affiliated with the given secondary. Is it really that difficult to get into these top schools from good state or religious primaries? And which state/religious primaries in London would you recommend?

We were thinking of buying in Islington or Putney/Wandsworth/Southfields/Wimbledon; some place close to the Tube for our commutes. But we’re very open to suggestions!

Someone up thread was objecting to the OP's stereotype of "English attitudes to education" (i.e. insufficiently tigerish and dooming their children to failure). I was just saying that for good or ill the stats (though gappy) do seem to back up her stereotype.

Have you looked at the full set of stats though iris? The pattern is quite striking, and I suspect with a more detailed economic split it would be even more so.

Of course there are loads of confounding factors, like the over-performance of London schools, and "white" is an imprecise proxy for "culturally British" but it does back up the OP's commonly held stereotype quite persuasively IMO.

OP, I think you're probably over thinking things... But I'm a planner myself and can see that regardless of whether your future children get to Oxbridge, whether they want to or not, you simply want them to have the best possible springboard from which to meet their full potential. I think most previous posters are in denial if they think that local schooling hasn't had an effect on the home they chose to buy...

Local schooling certainly was a huge consideration when we first bought in SW London two years ago. Now DS is 2 and DD is on the way, I couldn't be happier that we are well within the catchment of two outstanding primaries, and excellent state secondaries/grammars.

I am going to ignore the previous comments - although you are certainly planning very far ahead - and answer your original question...

I would look to buy in either Kingston/Richmond or Esher areas. All have excellent primaries and great private options for secondary. £1.7-2m should buy you a lovely forever home in any of those locations and all are within reasonable commute of Central London.

Of course I can, Washed.

But if the OP has finances on her side, why shouldn't she look to live in a great area, close to London for her commute, and with a great choice of primary/secondary schools to boot? Where we are there's a huge premium for the few roads that would 'guarantee' a place in a particular school, the same is true across much of the country.

Where did OP say they don't need a state primary place? Everyone is entitled to that regardless of wealth. I'd opt for a good state primary over private even if we could afford it...

If you're still reading OP, this development might suit. It has brand new houses in your budget and abuts Muswell Hill Primary school (outstanding). It's right in the centre of MH and has good access to green space. You would have to check but I think it would put you in catchment for Fortismere (state secondary) and is near some of the best grammars (QE boys, Henrietta Barnet etc) in the country.

pinnacle-n10.com

I cant believe this, all these comments.

Ops we live in Richmond, its only £1mil or smth and we have a lovely house, for your budget there are plenty. And we are spoiled with state primary choices.

I am also hoping the best education for my children and I could see me in you couple of years ago and I still dont find anything wrong with it

I am laughing, somewhat nervously, at the idea that all white British parents have the same attitude to education. Imagine if someone posted that 'all Black-African people think X' or 'all indian people are Y'?

Over the last twenty years fees have increased 300 per cent whilst salaries have risen 76 per cent.

It would be interesting to know where the OP is originally from, as there are some places where the only way to success is by going to a specific university, from a few certain schools. The UK isn't really like that though.

If you can afford to buy Oxbridge, why wouldn't you actually aim for MIT or Harvard?

OP, here are my opinion based on experience:

1. First and foremost the parents well-being should have priority over choice of school. You never wrote where to and when you and your husband will commute to work, but this is the most important question you need to answer. Do not underestimate tough commute. If the daddy works ungodly City hours he won't be too happy to commute from Kingston and similarly located areas in rush hour. Trains are very slow and subject to constant delays to let faster trains from outside of London go. It can take 50 minutes to get to one place midday, but it is more than an hour and sometimes 1:15-20 to the same place in morning rush hour.

1. In some cases it makes more economic sense to send your child to a private school from reception. I will explain on our example. We live in a nice area, quite affluent, easy access to good shops and restaurants. But recent shrinkage of the primary schools catchment areas put us in the sort of primary school black hole. Our neighbors a year ago got a place for their daughter at a school located 7 miles away. Council has to pay mileage, but imagine driving every morning in rush hour traffic to school. To avoid such fate we had 3 way choice: Find God to get into a church school, move to a catchment area of a good state school, go private. First option was discarded immediately, no one of us is a believer and going to church only to get a school place would make me a hypocrite. Moreover it would get my child to a school full of similar hypocrites who would never set foot in church again after getting a place at desired school. Not a nice company. Two other options I kept open till I my daughter was 3 this year. When we got an offer from the private school we wanted the most we decided to accept it. Not only because we liked the school, but because move would cost us a lot. Price for similarly sized flat in the catchment area of the best school around is 25-30% more than ours. Only monthly payment would be around £500 more than we pay now plus the cost of move, commissions, taxes etc. Plus we get to save on tutoring to get to secondary and all other benefits of private schools. So private schools can be a good deal depending on the situation.

1. If you decide to go state first. My research and talks with teachers and parents lead me to conclusion that you probably can skip first 3 years of private school without much problems for any situation. Then it depends on the child, school you have and your availability to help. As a general rule if you have a boy move him as soon as financially possible. Top London boy schools take very small number of boys at 11 and it is generally more difficult to make boys work with the tutor properly. Girls can wait longer or even go to private secondary from state primary if your school is decent and you can help her with preparations.

Thank you once again everyone for replies. I only logged in here this morning after the weekend. I’ve received loads of helpful advice here. Now, to all those implying that I am somehow aiming to “steal” other people’s access to good education I have the following question – I’m genuinely curious what people think the right behaviour is.

We’ve already said that I could, in theory, afford private schools. I’m actually a big fan of not stretching one’s future budget too far, and hence my idea of future-proofing the house by buying in a good catchment area. But let’s assume for a second that cost isn’t really a factor, for argument’s sake. Should people in similar position

(a) Only consider private schools, in order not to “hoover up” (quote from someone’s reply here) state school places for other, possibly less well-off, parents?
(b) It’s fine to send kinds to state schools, but God forbid should one explicitly look at catchment areas when searching for a home?

Because what I suggested, call it option

(c) look at catchment areas carefully, and knowing how much they tend to shrink from one year to next, buy as close to a good state school as possible

…clearly isn’t acceptable to some people. Which makes me wonder what their own choices were/would be, or are they simply being hypocritical?

Newbie I agree you can't win here with the state/private criticisms. You will get flak from certain people for choosing to go private and perpetuating an inequitable education system, from others for NOT going private when you can afford to (which begs the question, should you, once you have acquired a certain level of wealth, be forced into private education? ) and you also get some (but less) for buying in a decent catchment. The truth is, the system IS desperately unfair, but it won't be changing anytime soon and everyone wants to do the best for their kids and when it comes down to it, even if morally they are opposed to the way things work, few parents will sacrifice their kids' education on that particular altar. You have to just ignore these particular criticisms (but I'd listen to the ones wrt not knowing what your child or local school will be like in 5 yrs time!)

My personal bugbear is the parents who loudly pretend they are taking a left wing/moral stance by sending their dc's to state school when they have used their money to buy into the 'right' school-I know one couple who vacated their family home and rented a flat for a year to do this but tell everyone on earshot that they despise private schools. At least choosing private education is honest.

"hence my idea of future-proofing the house by buying in a good catchment area"

this is what is impossible to do this far in advance, schools change over time, 5 years is a LONG time in the life of a school. Change of head, fall out of favour etc...

Only take relevant and constructive advices here. I am new to this forum too and I have been seeing people advices are very helpful. The issue is in this forum you get more sympathies if you showing you caring emotionally for our LOs. And we are nearlly forbidden to mention Oxbridge or have any plan for our children and/or you are wealthy, have loads of choices then you will be subjected to critism too. Dont take it personally, no point to question back, dont waste time

We lived in Greenwich for 4 years as both myself and mu husband work in the city so commute was great and we could manage child care with mixed nanny/nursery. We then moved to Richmond to have more choices for primary. There isnt much choices for Secondary in Richmond unless go private and Tiffins. If you choose Richmond you have the park, the river, very childfriendly environment and almost all primary schools in Richmond are outstanding(state one and free). We chose state to save but also to have more money spend on other stuffs like sports, arts, musics and language extra private lessons(mibd you they are expensive especially if you are working, paying for childcare and having people coming to you place for these lesson). It takes us both 1hr to commute daily from door to door and we both work full time long hours, so its do able.

state secondary options in Richmond are improving.

Waldegrave (girls) has been good for a long time. St Richard Reynold's (Catholic) is new so no GCSE record but last year graded outstanding. Teddington, Orleans both very well thought of too.

The state schools now all have sixth forms which is new too.

@Tedd:

My neighbor mentioned of Waldergrave last night. They were so kind that had hours of chat till late on Monday sharing experiences on schools, their experiences with their children(both are now in very popular private schools). It relieved instantly my stress as I find that no one in my daughter class ever mentioned about their choices for secondary(she is year 3). I found out that many of my daughter classmates names are in a popular tutor list(which I then decided not to put her name down as 56 in the list of accepting 20 proving impossible. There are jealousy among parents(even friends with similar age children) that prevent them from sharing their experiences/knowledge. Its so hard here for very busy full time working parents to have understand/knowledge of how the uk system works

yes mumsnet is great for advice from mums who have been there done it and those not directly competing for places with you!

I've read most of the thread, and not seen this option mentioned yet:

Many city workers commute by train from Winchester.
Winchester has a collection of great state options from primary through to comprehensives and 6th form colleges. The large 6th form college regularly gets students through to 'Oxbridge'.
That will cover you however academic your child turns out to be. Season train tickets are expensive, but way less than private education.

And without all the Grammar / Private angst.

I am only on page 1 but surely the op is very clear as to why she wants to buy right now, as she cant move again in a couple of years.

Aim high for goodness sake, as she said keep her options open as much as possible.

v true Greenleave!!!

OP, I would suggest you buy a house that is a reasonable commute to work, and near a cluster of secondary schools you might like. Almost any part of London in zones 3-5 will have a cluster of schools that serve that suburban area. Each cluster will have its own pecking order of most prestigious academically on down.

I think there is no point in choosing the area based on a particular state primary school. State primary schools have to teach a set curriculum. The product really doesn't vary that much from school to school. Even at the best state schools you will have to do some sort of outside preparation for the entrance exams to reach the standard of the prep school children who are being specifically prepared for the entrance tests. It's not the role of state primaries to prep for independent school entrance exams; and they don't.