What state primaries in London to get into top private secondaries?

[newbieLdn]

We’re thinking of buying a house in London within a year or two. Baby's on the way, hopefully followed by second at some point.

We’d love for the kids to eventually go to Oxbridge, but will not really have the money for top-class private education for both kids for the whole 14 years. Or put it differently, even if we do think we have the money now, we may not have it in the future. We figured it’d be more sensible to put aside some funds for really good secondaries in the future, and in the short term, buy a property in a catchment area of a really good primary. This is, at the moment, the best we can afford. I’d definitely want to avoid the kids the trauma of being taken out of a good private school that they already got used to because daddy can now no longer pay the tuition fees, etc.

Initially, we thought they’d go to really good state primaries and secondaries; but looking at Oxbridge acceptance rates, it seems that all the top schools are private, at least in London and South East they are…

Does our plan sound sensible? I want to stress we’re both quite academically-oriented, and will always strive to help kids with homework, read them stories at bedtime, etc.

A friend of mine insists that at the top secondaries (the likes of Eton, Westminster, St Pauls) majority of students come from private primary schools, ideally – a prep school affiliated with the given secondary. Is it really that difficult to get into these top schools from good state or religious primaries? And which state/religious primaries in London would you recommend?

We were thinking of buying in Islington or Putney/Wandsworth/Southfields/Wimbledon; some place close to the Tube for our commutes. But we’re very open to suggestions!

TeddTess, not so in our experience. Plenty from Westminster Under School we knew did state till eight or state till 11, and many of the south and west London Independents take over half their 11+ intake from the state sector.

Potential is the key, and certainly not limited to those who have been through Private Preps.

my kids are both in state primary
DD1 went to independent secondary in sept, didn't find it too onerous but she is naturally very bright
am here doing bond books with DD2. it is torture, i have a year of nagging, cajoling ahead. kids of similar level at the private preps breeze through in comparison with way less out of school prep and way more sport, art, drama etc which is fairly non existent in state primaries unless you are naturally talented and do a LOT out of school.

if i was doing it all again i would be less concerned about paying a huge prermium for a house in a great school catchment and would just go for a nice house and pay fees. i think it would have been cheaper and easier all round (in my parallel universe)

Nothing wrong with trying to plan ahead, OP. But there is many a slip between cup and lip.

Go for good state primaries with a view to getting into a good private school. Don't look any further, you will drive yourself and your children insane. 20 years is a long time for education standards, policies and individual schools to change.

There are many, many ways to get into top universities, and going to the "right" school is only one of them. The parents you are speaking to have latched onto this method as it's the only one they think they can control. It's madness.

You need to be confident in yourselves, you need to hope and pray your children will be born fit and healthy, able and academically minded, socially well adjusted, that you are able to afford education and can stay on top of their education throughout the long haul, that you don't leave the country or that the children don't choose to study overseas....

Relax. Plan for the next 10 years. University planning at this stage is crazy.

A lot of parents with children in prep schools still end up hiring tutors for the 11+ though.

For many of the top boys and co-ed schools (particularly boarding schools such as Eton, Winchester) you need to account for the two years between 11 and 13 as the state school primaries only go up to end of yr 6.

To keep options open I would suggest buying in Sevenoaks/Tonbridge Wells. Very good schools at all levels (grammar school places very limited in number but that wouldn't be your game plan anyway), and there is huge crossover between state and private, with kids hopping across in both directions. Excellent commute to London and the money you save in a very good family home will leave you enough money to cover either tuition or the extra fees for the yrs 5/6/7/8 crossover period where you may want your children to switch to prep school in order to get best chance in common entrance exams. I don't live in that area but know it (and many families who live there) well, and if I had the chance to do it all again, that's where I would base my family.

if i was doing it all again i would be less concerned about paying a huge prermium for a house in a great school catchment and would just go for a nice house and pay fees. i think it would have been cheaper and easier all round

TeddTess, this is an interesting point. What sort of premium are we talking about, on a say typical 4-bed house in SW London (Richmond/Barnes/Chiswick/etc)?

Guildford is a good place outside London. You can get to London in half an hour by train. £1m can get you a good house in good location, then there are really good private day schools. Royal grammar for boys, 1/3 of their children go to Oxbridge, Guildford high school for girls. I think these 2 schools rank very high in private schools.

If you're goal is private for secondary I would live somewhere cheaper (can still be London) and choose a good prep school. We have done it both ways and prepping for the 11+ isn't fun and if most of your child's friends aren't also doing it you lose the commraderie of doing it together. A good prep head will steer you toward the right secondary for you and the process will be less fraught. You need to ask yourself if you will be happy with a class of 30 kids in state school reception. It is just plain easier and less stressful to move from a prep. If I had to do it again I wouldn't bother with state primaries knowing private secondary was the goal.

for £1.5m you can get a very decent house in most of Surrey with fast commutes

you get nothing for that in a good school catchment in SW London.

New Malden has fast access to London and the housing is a lot cheaper.

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-51955333.html

That would leave you plenty of money for some fanastic private schools.

This is a lovely house which is in walking distance of Hampton Court Station.

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-48966409.html

The nearest primary, The Orchard is OFSTED outstanding, if you chose to use state schools for the early years.

*for £1.5m...
you get nothing for that in a good school catchment in SW London."

TeddTess, isn't that a bit counter-intuitive then? We're talking about the tradeoff of paying a premium for a good catchment , vs. say 10k (that's for very, very good private primaries?) times 6 years times say 2 children, that 120k. And there are plenty of really nice houses in London to be had for 1.5mln, in areas like Greenwich/Blackheath, Highgate (not "prime Highgate" though), Clapham this seems to be the average price for a 4-bed. So people would rather pay many hundreds of thousands more to live in a good catchment area, than save the money and spend just a fraction of that (i.e. the £120k I worked out above) and have the flexibility of being able to choose a property in a much wider search area, so you can really focus on the merits of the house itself and not whether it's one of the 3 that come on the market this year in a catchment area of 200 meter radius? Am I missing something, or does trying to buy in a good primary catchment area makes no sense?

Horrible spelling in my previous post, my mistake. I didn't realise there wasn't an "Edit" button!

newbie I think you are underestimating the cost of private primary, it will be at least £12k per year per primary child (up to £20k if you want to go crazy at places like ASL). At secondary this goes up to min around £15k. And I would look, seriously look, at what you could buy for £1.6m near an outstanding primary in naice SW London, you may be disappointed if you are looking for a 'forever' home. But only you can judge that. Basing on an 'average' cost for a 4 bed tells you very little about what the properties are actually like.

State primaries change quickly, as do catchments.

We moved when dc was 2. Good chance of getting in our local, outstanding, all singing all dancing school.

2 years in and the catchment had shrunk to one or two roads as people bought next to it. In addition, when I went to look round I hated it, and that bore out two years later when it was downgraded by ofsted and had major bullying issues.

In the other hand, the sink school round the corner was totally demolished, money thrown at it, and is now a fantastic school.

I'd look at se London too. Reasonable housing, lots of outstanding primaries, several state secondaries that perform better than private, and excellent privates.

Lastly, do bear in mind that often, while private schools results appear better, they often don't do so well across the board. State schools often have better results across a wider ability range.

You will not get a 4 bed home for £1.5m in north london in the catchment area of good schools.

In islington for example it will buy you a 3 bed flat, but not near a decent school.

To be honest, ridiculous as it sounds, I think that plenty of people buying a house in a desirable part of London can afford to go private, they aren't necessarily buying to be in catchment, that is sometimes a desirable bonus but not the key motivator. Some of those buyers won't even be contemplating state school, they just want the area/house.

Actually I lied. You can get this "gorgous" property.

boak

www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/38190471#FM2ZJZXR37Stcxuy.97

What I mean is, house prices have become so silly in certain postcodes that it is way beyond the cost of school fees IYSWIM. You have to compromise on property, which you may be happy to do, but as newname's story and Giles Coren's story attests, it's a big gamble to take when you don't know what your chosen school will be like in 5 years, nor if you will definitely get a place.

You won't find many prep schools now for 10k a year within an hour of central London , let alone in 5-10 years' time. Most secondaries are over £15k, muchmore for top public schools. You seem to be vastly underestimating the longterm costs of a UK private education.

LIZS, let's not hypothetise on what these costs will be in 5-10 years' time. Presumably, school fee inflation will be in-line with growth of our assets and/or income.

I worked out 10k as follows: checked on websites of a few from the very-very top 10 prep schools in London www.bestprepschools.co.uk/League-Tables.asp and the very-very most expensive ones were £15-17k (Hereward, Westminster Under) with quite a few charging 12-13k. I figured Top 10 wasn't really necessary, although I can be mistaken here; and that a really good prep school just outside of this top 10 would cost around £10k per year.

Regardless though of whether it's 10 or 13 or even 15k, my point stands: buying a house in a catchment area of a really good state school makes very little sense, unless I'm missing something? One, the premium for it will be more than cost of private primary education for 2 kids (say 2 6 years 15k = 180k); two, one might end up spending extra £ for the great catchment area, only to find out others have moved in even closer; three, according to posters above, if great private secondary or grammar is the goal, private prep will always (?) be better than top state school. Right?

i would agree with you except on the point "private prep will always (?) be better than top state school" as that is not true.

buy a house you like. keep money aside for life/travel/education and then see what your options are when your child(ren) are school age. You just can't decide all this in such detail so far in advance.

NewbieLDN

I think you've underestimated the cost of schools and of houses. AFAIK there are NO central ish London Preps for under about £17K a year. So X 2 children X 6 years that's £204k. Plus add on the cost of their nurseries (I guess £13k pa???? For 2 years X 2 kids, plus at least another £10-£15k for expensive uniforms & school trips = let's say £270k to make a nice number.

Then for Senior schools I'm less sure of the fees, but seems to be more like £20-23k a year, X 5 years (assuming starting in year 9) X 2 kids + £10-15 for trips, let's say £240k.... But if you're planning that route for senior regardless then it's less relevant.

I do think you've probably underestimated the cost of housing too.

If you're able to tell us what your budget is and how many bedroom you need perhaps we can help further?

Personally I would say that your best chance is to buy a house anywhere you can afford and go private. These schools are really designed to coach for 7+ / 8+, 11+ and 13+, state schools are not! It's very possible to get into eg. Westminster from a state, but it's significantly harder. Unless your child is showing signs of genius in a few years I would not consider it for preference!!

I would also consider living out of London and using one of the feeder schools for Eton / Harrow, even Tonbridge as another route to an elite university. You'll get a better house too!

Oops, I didn't see your post NewbieLDN before I posted!!

A prep school for £10k a year!!? I don't think you'll find that even outside of London! or if you do by some miracle, the quality of education is doubtful.

Tedless
Entry for elite senior schools which OP wants is by 11+ or 13+. Preps prepare specifically for this, State does not, it prepares primarily for more state. So why would you not choose a prep?

^ I stand corrected on "No central ish London preps for under £17k a year". I did look at prices for about 20 myself, but obviously an expensive 20!