What state primaries in London to get into top private secondaries?

[newbieLdn]

We’re thinking of buying a house in London within a year or two. Baby's on the way, hopefully followed by second at some point.

We’d love for the kids to eventually go to Oxbridge, but will not really have the money for top-class private education for both kids for the whole 14 years. Or put it differently, even if we do think we have the money now, we may not have it in the future. We figured it’d be more sensible to put aside some funds for really good secondaries in the future, and in the short term, buy a property in a catchment area of a really good primary. This is, at the moment, the best we can afford. I’d definitely want to avoid the kids the trauma of being taken out of a good private school that they already got used to because daddy can now no longer pay the tuition fees, etc.

Initially, we thought they’d go to really good state primaries and secondaries; but looking at Oxbridge acceptance rates, it seems that all the top schools are private, at least in London and South East they are…

Does our plan sound sensible? I want to stress we’re both quite academically-oriented, and will always strive to help kids with homework, read them stories at bedtime, etc.

A friend of mine insists that at the top secondaries (the likes of Eton, Westminster, St Pauls) majority of students come from private primary schools, ideally – a prep school affiliated with the given secondary. Is it really that difficult to get into these top schools from good state or religious primaries? And which state/religious primaries in London would you recommend?

We were thinking of buying in Islington or Putney/Wandsworth/Southfields/Wimbledon; some place close to the Tube for our commutes. But we’re very open to suggestions!

I'm with those suggesting you are rather getting ahead of yourself. Education is changing, 20 years ago uni tuition fees weren't bring charged, academies weren't in the picture, early years funding didn't exist. Who knows what will happen in the next 10+.

If you have that high a budget buy somewhere, possibly for less, with access to good preschool and primary, both state and private in an area you want to live. Live for now , not for a potential future lifestyle which has yet to even start to become reality. There is time to move again if needs be. Maybe work or life will take you elsewhere, or circumstances dictate otherwise.

State schools will not prepare for private secondary exams or even grammar so you may decide to put funds aside for supplementary extra curricular activities. Or go private for primary in the hope of a selective state place. If you want to register at birth for likes of Westminster go ahead but tbh it is unnecessary until you have a fuller picture of what your future child's strengths and weaknesses may be. By the time it comes around you may find it excessively expensive, unsuitable or that there are alternatives. Indeed it may even become easier to get into Oxbridge from a state school.

Oh I'm with youCookie - it's not that I don;t think it should be higher. But you'd think the way OP phrased her OP that if you aren't in one of the top 10 schools in the country then you stand no chance.

You might find this helpful OP. To get ahead of the game.

www.lifemoreextraordinary.com/get-into-oxbridge/

newbie I think you are being given a hard time here. Where I come from too in Asia, every single family is aiming for Oxbridge/Yale/Harvard. Not just middle class families but working class. It's massive massive pressure, 100% more than what our kids face in the UK. I'm not saying it's right at all but your opening post is really normal where I come from.

Kew interesting article. Thanks for posting!

Cookie - I want Oxbridge admissions people to take a long hard look at why in state schools with equivalent results to the top independent schools there are fewer entrants to Oxbridge.

If they genuinely want the best candidates then they should be doing some hard thinking about that... I assume they're capable of that.

And there are vanishingly few independent secondary schools that you have to decide on before your child is born - and lets be blunt - they aren't likely to be the ones OP's children are going to get into except on a scholarship which certianly isn't decided before the child is born! Most of the good academic independent london secondary schools are exam entry.

newbie many very knowledgeable people now belief that Imperial and UCL are the "best" universities in the UK. I suspect that in 19 years it is almost certain that the "best" might not necessarily be Oxford or Cambridge, depending on the subject being studied.

OP, as another foreigner I must warn you that any mention of wanting your dc to go to Oxbridge ruffles British feathers in an untold way. There is something about it that the rest of us will never grasp. If you have two of the world's top 10 universities on your doorstep, why wouldn't you want to offer your dc the opportunity to go there? If they don't take it, then fair enough, but for myself I would want to make sure that I have given them every chance. I went to Oxbridge from abroad and it was incredibly hard, but worth it. I would like my dc to have the same opportunity.

To slightly off the wall suggestions for you:

1- Could you commute from somewhere like Cambridge? Apparently some of the schools there are very very good, even state ones, and with your budget you could buy a very, very nice house and still have enough money to set aside to pay for private school.

2- Have you looked into home schooling? We home ed dc, and with very little time expenditure and lots of play/free time they are well ahead of what they would be in any school, private or state, and we could prep them for the top independent schools without much trouble. We probably won't as we will probably continue to home ed until uni. Of course, it does depend on you being able to structure things in such a way that there is always someone there for the dc, it doesn't work if you need school as childcare!

Good luck, I totally get where you are coming from, prices in the UK are so absurd that you feel that you have to foresee ever eventuality for the next 40 years before buying.

Nope - aspiring to Oxbridge before your child is born and you know what they want will ruffle feathers. If they want it too - not so much.

In Islington, I understand that William Tyndale is the best primary but it has a very small catchment area and is heavily oversubscribed.

I also think you might struggle to get a 4 bed house in your budget in N1. Prices have gone mad - my friend sold her 2 bed flat for over a million in the Summer.

Finally, IMO there's little point in getting fixated on Oxbridge. (And I say this as a Oxford graduate). Their selection isn't simply based on the brightest and many "straight A" students are rejected. Your DC will need the straight As and a lot of luck. It's quite an expectation to place on a foetus!

D'oh!!! If only I'd known that reading to my kids at bedtime means they will get Oxbridge places!! Now I can relax... (DS 2 actually never likely to go anywhere near Oxbridge, unless it's to plumb a toilet there...) OP your baby may not be what you anticipate. Don't set him/her up for a life of feeling like a disappointment. Poor, poor little foetus.

wow. Some people are super organised. What happens if your child isn't academic or has learning needs?

Kew: Cambridge tutors certainly do out a lot of effort into encouraging applications from state schools.

"Most of the good academic independent london secondary schools are exam entry."

Are there any at all which are not exam entry?

OP, I think you are being a bit unfairly treated! I share these aspirations and am choosing simialrly (as my parents did for me - I'm state school primary, private secondary and Oxbridge, as are loads and loads of my friends).

The London private schools are not full of prep school children. There are lots of London primaries that send to the London secondary schools. Many London primaries are fantastic.

So I would choose an area you like, very very close to a primary school you like. Don't over-stretch - I think its more important to have disposable cash for educational fun, new books, as well as tutors. We also spend quite a lot on very high quality childcare.

If you go onto a relevant Council's website, it will have a primary school admissions booklet. Have a look at it - usually the best schools are those with the tiny catchments.

Oxford and Cambridge have been trying for years (with some success, but it takes time) to encourage bright kids from middling/poor state schools to apply. It's difficult though, partly because a lot of schools don't event think of it as an option and partly because of the educational arms race exemplified by posters like this one.

Fixating on Oxbridge is really weird. There are lots of good universities and good courses out there. Though I am probably biased because I went to Cambridge and neither I nor any of my university friends have achieved anything remotely spectacular in career terms. Academic success is not very highly correlated with success in later life, in my experience.

I agree, its really weird, and depends on the course. it's not like the US with Harward, Yale etc (and even that's changing is it not MIT etc?)

but some people will never be convinced of this ....

Assuming that the judgemental comments haven't scared the OP away ....

Focus on West London if you can afford it as the concentration of decent primary schools and secondary schools is much higher so you will have considerably more choice in a narrower catchment area in the future. I say this as a North Londoner, where there are some excellent schools, but spread over a much greater area and about a third as many as in West London. Of course, this is very much based on my judgement of what schools you might be looking for and open to debate.

As for primary schools, I wouldn't worry too much other than making sure they aren't in real trouble. A reasonable Ofsted report is a good start but much more importantly is the "feel" of the place and that you can only get from seeing it.

Primary schooling is only part of the equation. You need to be good involved parents providing lots of reading and enjoyable (not forced) extra curricular and cultural input. If you plug away at that for a decade then, with some help from genetics, your child stands as good a chance as any "heavily prep'd, private school candidate" at the 11+ exam stage.

I think you are right to be focused, just take care not to drive your child away from enjoying discovery, learning and education by pushing too hard. There is no set development path, no rules, no system that works for all.

Good luck with house hunting and baby making!

I don't think Eton is exam ( scholarship excepted) I think it's interview.

I know there is an effort to increase state school entrants - none the less when comparing private schools with state schools with equivalent exam results, there are half the number of entrants from the state. This is not poor or underperforming schools, these are schools getting the same results as the private schools compared.

You might be going about this all the wrong way round.

Oxbridge are desperate to increase their proportion of state school entrants. Therefore it seems to me that if a bright kid from a state school can get the grades (and why not with parental support and these days tutoring) they would actually have more chance of getting in than a similarly bright kid from a private school.

Why don't you look at buying property in Surrey? You would get a lot for your money and be able to afford private education. Private schools in surrey are often in a different league to state primaries. The classes are smaller and there are far fewer distruptive children. If you want you can often choose a selective prep school where the teacher can teach at a more rapid pace. Private preps teach foreign languages properly, they have better science facilities and often have subject teachers at a much earlier age than state schools.

I am a little bemused wanting to aim for Oxbridge for an unborn baby. Life is unpredictable and your child might have other ideas. I can't blame you for wanting the best for your children.

Public schools take at 13, after Common Entrance exam. State primaries go up to 11. What will your offspring do for the two intervening academic years?

Do you both work in London? I would be tempted to live elsewhere unless absolutely necessary for work.

Focus on one step at a time. At primary school stage I would be looking for a school that produces children with a thirst for knowledge, are confident and well educated. When your cihld is older I would look for a secondary school that would meet his/her needs best (for happiness as well as attainment). At around 9/10 you will know whether your child is academic/ sporty/ musical and what kind of temperment they have.

Children are not carbon copies of their parents. My son has completely different interests to either of his parents. For example he has a passion for biology and singing which neither of his parents share.

Ignoring the most hackle-raising aspects of the OP, which are largely due to cultural difference.

A) Most London primaries are very good.
B) But none of them will prepare children for private 11+ You'll need to do that yourself with or without help from private tutors.
C) Most of the top private London secondaries take a lot of children from the state sector, normally about half, and not all from special secret quasi-prep state primaries.
D) My DD went to one of the exceptions to rule A) - a very flaky inner London primary which had had a lot of teacher turnover and a catastrophic fall in SATS results. She got offers from all the three extremely competitive private secondaries she applied to, and the top boy in her year is currently at Westminster.

What I'm trying to say is: relax. Find a nice house with a reasonable commute in a place you'd like to live. If you want to consider primaries then look for somewhere where there are several schools with a Good or better OFSTED that do not require Catholic baptism aged 2 weeks (unless you are Catholic, in which case knock yourself out). Try to avoid places in primary "black holes" where you wouldn't be in the catchment for any of your nearest primaries - but obviously that will be subject to change in the next five years. Once your hypothetical child is seven years old reappraise the situation and decide which secondary schools you want to apply for and how much coaching that might require.