What state primaries in London to get into top private secondaries?

[newbieLdn]

We’re thinking of buying a house in London within a year or two. Baby's on the way, hopefully followed by second at some point.

We’d love for the kids to eventually go to Oxbridge, but will not really have the money for top-class private education for both kids for the whole 14 years. Or put it differently, even if we do think we have the money now, we may not have it in the future. We figured it’d be more sensible to put aside some funds for really good secondaries in the future, and in the short term, buy a property in a catchment area of a really good primary. This is, at the moment, the best we can afford. I’d definitely want to avoid the kids the trauma of being taken out of a good private school that they already got used to because daddy can now no longer pay the tuition fees, etc.

Initially, we thought they’d go to really good state primaries and secondaries; but looking at Oxbridge acceptance rates, it seems that all the top schools are private, at least in London and South East they are…

Does our plan sound sensible? I want to stress we’re both quite academically-oriented, and will always strive to help kids with homework, read them stories at bedtime, etc.

A friend of mine insists that at the top secondaries (the likes of Eton, Westminster, St Pauls) majority of students come from private primary schools, ideally – a prep school affiliated with the given secondary. Is it really that difficult to get into these top schools from good state or religious primaries? And which state/religious primaries in London would you recommend?

We were thinking of buying in Islington or Putney/Wandsworth/Southfields/Wimbledon; some place close to the Tube for our commutes. But we’re very open to suggestions!

And Racundra, all private secondaries in London have an entry point at 11+ AFAIK.

Kew that £1.6m flat has a 47 year lease on it (knew it seemed far too cheap to be true) - good luck getting a mortgage on that .

OP I think you are being absurd for all the reasons others have stated but moreover, tbh, if you are worrying about paying private primary school fees then I think you can't afford a 4 bed place near a great school in Central London, the premium on it will be far greater than the fees and it could all be for nothing insofar as the school goes. I don't know if you happened to read Giles Coren's recent piece in the Times about being 'forced' to send his DD private because she didn't get into the excellent state primary at the end of their street...due to address 'fraud' by wealthy parents - it's a common problem.

yes- I specifically said public schools, not all independents (primarily because Eton, St Paul's and Westminster were mentioned upthread and all take at 13+).

Both St Paul's and Westminster have an 11+ entry aimed at state school pupils. No idea about Eton, I'm only talking about London.

That would be to their preps at 11 though, wouldn't it?

Though why we're discussing this theoretical child's future, I'm not sure!

Oxbridge do assess things like presentation; they do interiews; etc.

They look for ability and potential. I'm a bit worried by what you mean by 'presentation'.

OP, as another foreigner I must warn you that any mention of wanting your dc to go to Oxbridge ruffles British feathers in an untold way.

FGS listen to her, especially about DC that can't speak or express an ambition of their own yet. And especially the unborn

most especially ^

Of course you want the best for your child, that's normal. But you have to be able to adjust your expectations downward if your DC turns out to be mediocre.

If your DC doesn't have natural talent they will not end up at Oxbridge! No amount of tutoring can make up for it. Your DC will be competing for Oxbridge with bright children from all over the world, not least the hoards with rich dedicated parents who can pay for the best schools and tutoring and whose DC are naturally gifted too..... Plus there are many other factors aside from academic which come in to play. You can get 5 A*'s at Alevel and still not get in.

Look at this list of schools which are the top feeders for Oxbridge and you'll see how many don't get in even with good grades.

image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Education/documents/2007/09/20/100topoxbridge.pdf

As long as you can be realistic about how small your chances of Oxbrige entry are, I would say either....

If you're worried about property prices, buy a 2 bed flat in the catchment of an ultra desirable state school for whatever it costs (£850k+ I imagine, I suggest the SW London areas others have mentioned) and hope you get a place at the school.

Spend £500k on a not so nice flat and send DC to the best private school several miles away which you can get a place at (start getting on waiting lists ASAP after birth) I suggest Schools around Hampstead such as The Hall, Arnold House etc, but others MNers will be able to make suggestions for other areas.

Live out of London and have a nicer house and pick a Prep in Berkshire which feeds to Eton & Harrow etc. Eg. Caldicott, Ludgrove, Papplewick etc.

Take your chances a bit more and just buy a house you like with a decent range of schools around. If DC is bright enough they will do pretty well anywhere I'd have thought.

Tatler guide to top state primaries.

www.tatler.com/news/articles/january-2015/the-tatler-guide-to-the-best-state-primary-schools

I really don't understand why the OP is getting such a hard time. Yes school catchments, Uni funding etc. might change but if you are hoping to buy your 'forever' home, surely it would be wise to do that in the catchment for good schools so far as you possibly can? I've been looking at secondary school catchments in a city north of the border and I'm not yet even TTC.
I also went to Oxbridge from a state school, it's not necessarily best already for some subjects and I wouldn't push my (hypothetical) kids there if it didn't suit but would like them to have the best chance if it did. It makes me sad that most of the time I will go a long way to try to avoid mentioning in conversation where I was at uni because so many people make instant negative assumptions - definitely a UK thing, where I currently live overseas those few people who do know were overwhelmingly positive about it.

I don't know anyone who is negative about someone who actually went to Oxford but then maybe I'm lucky?

I do wince a bit at parents planning to open up "opportunities" to get their kids to Oxbridge before they are even born. Why not move close to a School of Performing Arts, or a Sporting Academy? There is an unspoken expectation which your kids will be aware of - that you aspire to a top notch academic lifestyle for them and you will have to readjust your expectations if they turn out to be "mediocre" (ie normal).

I'm looking for the secondary that will best suit my son and his talents and challenges, there's nothing wrong with that nor looking for a school which will give him his best shot at Oxbridge if he were academic but he's 10 - some of his talents and his personality type is already obvious.

"I don't think Eton is exam ( scholarship excepted) I think it's interview."

Eton (which isn't in London) is exam pretext and interview, plus Common Entrance exam or KS exam, or straight KS exam.

I can't think of a London school which does not have exam entry (as a I think even Portland Place does now, though don't they say it's for setting purposes?)

I think basically OP you need to choose roughly whether you want to be in South London (KCS, Westminster, St Paul's, Dulwich, Alleyns, SPGS, JAGS, lots of GDST schools, possibly in reach of some grammars) or the North (Westminster, City of London schools, NLCS). You can reach a lot of schools if you are close to say, Clapham Junction.

Why do people keep saying the OP "wants the best for her children"?

How can she possibly know what's the best when one is a newborn and the other hasn't even been conceived yet?

Ludicrous.

sleepwhenidie, what's the address "fraud" about? Can you send the link to the article please (assuming it's not behind a paywall)? Sounds awful, and yet another reason not to bother with buying a property in a catchment area.

Everyone - please excuse me for not knowing how the system works in the UK; I'm surrounded by the sort of people who talk about enrolling their kids at top schools at birth, and was under the impression that that's what you "have" to do. But as we may not be able to afford top private education at all stages for all our kids, we figured buying a house in a good catchment area was an option.

boleh, as PP have already posted, people on here aren't negative about Oxbridge.

They're negative about making life-long plans around Oxbridge for a newborn baby and one which hasn't even been conceived.

I thought that was obvious from the OP.

If you are shopping for a 'forever home' now, go for a grammar school area with good transport links (Orpington, Kingston, maybe even Bucks or Kent) and then relax.

You'll get more house for your money and have options when the time comes (grammar, comprehensive or private).

Then try to widen your social circle slightly, for the DC's sake.

newbie the original article will be behind the paywall but local newspaper Ham&High covers it here

The more competitive North and West London nursery/preprep/prep schools take registrations from , or in some instances even before , birth for which you pay a fee. It is something of a self perpetuating hysteria among parents who make multiple registrations which works to the financial advantage of the schools. But even then the place isn't guaranteed as they will assess the child a year or so before entry before an offer is made.

For secondary it is usually those who have a previous connection to a particular school/house who register early. Increasingly this is unnecessary until aged 10ish when pretests take place and a place will be offered subject to certain academic criteria (common entrance exam taken at13 or equivalent). You may need to transfer from state to prep for years 7 and 8 in preparation.

At this stage you may have to pay a substantial deposit to the secondary not knowing if you might get financial assistance from a scholarship or bursary. Bearing in mind the day fees at the elite schools you mention are already over £20k pa , 30k+ for boarding, with increases of up to 5% a year, this could represent a significant financial commitment with still no guarantee of Oxbridge. There are plenty of other schools, both independent and states which regularly send pupils to the top Unis. You don't need to narrow your options at this stage,

But to reiterate a point that's been made previously, no state primary, however good/outstanding (and there are plenty of them) will prepare a child for 11+/entrance exams, tutoring will be required if only to teach exam technique and get them used to the style of questions and understand what is necessary to do well.

Hmmm.

Mine are older, and my son went to Westminster, so with hindsight I would say that rather than fixing on specific objectives it might be better to aim for the right school/university/course for the child, and instead aim to keep as many doors open as possible, accepting that your child's character and ability will play a part.

OP suggests Oxbridge may have unfair entrance criteria. The British approach, and this will apply as much to top schools as much as top Universities, is to often look at achieved grades as an initial qualification, but are as interested in potential, what an individual will gain from a school and what they can contribute.

We have seen people frustrated with Westminster because, as one mother suggested "it is very British". This would not have been the student body, which is hugely international, but because it is quirky, with some curious traditions, strong links with the Abbey etc. And the focus is very much more on educating the individual rather than simply grades. The latter are essentially a by-product of interesting and engaged teaching at a school where it is cool to be clever. There is also a strong expectation that pupils engage in non academic activities, including two full afternoons a week devoted to sport. So yes it might be top of many league tables but some parents find it is provides a different education to the one they wanted to buy. Ditto I assume with Oxbridge, which would be fantastic for a student who engages with the wider life but potentially isolating for a student who simply sees it as a line on a CV and who is sitting alone in the library striving for a first. It is worth looking at wiki entries for top schools and see the variety of careers listed for former pupils. A good education gives you the confidence to pursue interests and to suceed in a variety of fields.

Sooo.

1. Tatlers top state primaries are mainly where Tatler people live. Some very sucessful primaries are in much poorer areas where often migrant communities are determined that their children take every advantage of their British education.

1. State to eight is always an option if you need to save money.

1. Take a look at grammar schools and consider being in the catchment for one. The entry process is more transparent. Top marks and you are in. A lot of specific coaching to achieve those top marks will go on, and the schools themselves, perhaps reflecting their intake, have a reputation of being much more exam/grade focussed. Plus they are free!

1. Keep an open mind at each stage. DD is dyslexic and got super support at what is often seen as a less academic secondary option. Both she and I witnessed some pretty tackless snobbery by those who had a firm list of the London school pecking order. Come sixth form she is doing just as well as some of those kids and indeed probably far better than if she had spent Yr 7 struggling in a more academic school. She is now applying to medical school and, to the horror of an Asian friend of mine, plans to ignore Oxbridge and the more academic London schools even though she has the grades. She does not want to be a research doctor and thinks she will be a better medic if she has the scope and time to mix with a broader cross-section of students. (And she is more than aware of the presure some others are under to both study medicine and to aim for top Universities, something she is more than happy to avoid.)

1. Think carefully about what you want for a child and their education. Some parenting seems to focussed on achievement, leaving children uncertain about whether they are loved for themselves. Experience of failure is an important part of sucess and sucessfull people are resiliant, able to pick themsselves up, and to find different routes to the place they want to go.

End of parenting manual! I agree Clapham Junction is a good start. I might look further over towards Kingston. Somewhere in the Tiffin catchment, but also accessible to SPS, SPGS and the other Hammersmith schools, LEH, Hampton, Wimbledon/Puteny Highs and so on. Nice areas with million pound plus houses tend to have nice Primary schools even though results are boosted by all the additional coaching. Westminster is accessible via the Waterloo or Victoria Main Line or the district line. The other option is somewhere near the North London grammars with the option of Westminster, City and NCLS, Habs, Highgate etc.

you're making life too complicated.
buy a house way out of London (Esher for example with a good fast commute into the city), use the £ to send to private prep. It's pretty hard getting into the best private secondaries from a state primary imo unless exceptionally bright.