Primary school place shortage in Crouch End September 2015

[cgehansen]

Hi, Has anyone been affected by the shortage of primary school places in Crouch End? We put the 6 closest schools to us by distance on our form which are Weston Park Primary, Rokesly Infant, Coleridge Primary, St Aidan's, Ashmount Primary and Campsbourne Infant. We've been turned down from all of them and instead have been offered a school in Wood Green which is a 48 minute walk away. I know of at least 5 others in the same situation.

I'm trying to get a group of us together to take this up with the Council so if you are in the same boat or know somebody else in this situation in Crouch End it would be great to hear from you. Only in large numbers can we make the Council take notice.

Yes, that's an example of very normal, widely used criteria (by Admissions Authorities which choose to adopt them, whether in London or elsewhere).

I'm not sure what your point is in quoting them on this thread.

Wandsworth is introducing something like this next year. I read somewhere that they propose a cut off of 800m. Move further than that away from the school and sibling preference would no longer apply.

;) northlondon

What northlondon dad says happens at Coleridge re' the secondary school/ sibling/ moving thing is also what happens in Camden. Get your first child into St Eleanor of Palmer and all the siblings go to, then move so that pub can go to CSG or Fortismere. Bitter. Not really. But I would like to scupper some cunning plans.

Anyhow, do you know where you are on the waiting lists OP? Just from experience of friends I'd say that anything up to fourth for a 30 place school and 6-8 for a 60 is a good bet.

Good luck, I hope you get something local.

I saw that too mango although not madly hopeful camden or Haringey will follow suit. Camden at least don't seem very forward thinking and remain quite conservative when it comes to school places. I do wonder if Islingoton goes for it though, their admissions department seem to be far more on the ball than their neighbours well, IMO. Tower hamlets have changed their admissions criteria completely and sibling links have been affected in some way by that.

We got the waiting list figures today. 6th place for Weston Park even though we live 150 metres away and 30th for Rokesley which is 600 metres from our house. I guess there must be lost of people in the same situation and I can't see there is much chance of us getting into either of those schools. I know what northlondon dad says happens at Coleridge does actually take place. It must be affecting Rokesley too now. I can't think of another reason why the admissions distance has shrunk from 0.4 miles to 0.2 miles this year.

Parents are renting near Highgate wood as kids on Rathcool/Mayfield/Uplands, that i know of, are not getting places.

hardly a cpnsolation for you, but its easy to see that if Weston Park had an extra class it would have offerred 36 places on distance not 6. This would then have had a knock on effect for Rokesley as people closer to Weston Park than Rokesley would have been likely to apply to Weston Park with a higher preference and so get their offer for Weston Park and not use up an offer for Rokesley. So the sharp contraction of Weston Park would partly explain the sharp contraction of Rokesely.

So pushing for a bulge class at Weston Park would certainly be worth trying.

Get on to your local councillor, early next week when they will have recovered from the election....

theres no classroom space left at Weston park for another bulge year. The only school that could expand is st Marys and possibly Campsbourne.

The contraction of Weston park is definitely part of the problem. I also think the temporary renters at Coleridge have taken up local places making it harder to get into other local schools. In the short term I wonder whether rokesley could take an extra class. I know the religious aspect is putting some parents off st Mary's including us.

theres no way Rokesly could expand, its a small site and already 3 form.

There might be a shortage of places in Crouch End, but there are enough places over all in Haringey, is that right? I can't see Haringey willingly letting some school places remain unfilled while putting on bulge classes at more popular schools? Would they have the money to do this?

I agree that being 6th on the waiting list for a single form entry school doesn't sound great, but you never know. You just need a couple of parents to take up their private offer and a couple to jump ship if they get offered something they prefer in the waiting list shift. You might not get in by September, but you never know.

But is it 'temporary renters' that are causing problems with a lack of spaces? Isn't it more that so very many people with young families move into the area, necessitating the need for bulge classes, which then create additional children with a sibling link in the subsequent years.

Councils are very, very astute to temporary addresses for school places ie those that appear on application forms year after year for different children, and this certainly doesn't apply to the majority of applicants.

Yes, there are enough places in Haringey. Just not in the areas that people with young children crowd into and then wonder why there aren't enough school places, I'm afraid.

We should be able to send our kids to a local school though irrespective of the number of people in the area. And although there is a surplus elsewhere in Haringey that is predicted to change in the next few years. I think what we need is better long term planning and not bulge classes and a fairer admissions process for local people. I did speak to the admissions office at Haringey today and they didn't disagree with the temporary renter issue. In fact they said the thought a lot of people did it. It's just not that easy to check up on.

Unless you live in a borough like Haringey, its almost incomprehensible how different Crouch End is from say WoodGreen or Tottenham.

That's why so many of us stick with C of E or Catholic schools.

Haringey have known for at least 8 years that this situation was worsening.

I live in Haringey. My children go to school in Barnet & Camden!

I'm biased because my children used to go to St Mary's but don't let the religious aspect put you off the school, it really might be worth a visit to see for yourself. We were all very happy there and we are not religious at all! In fact there really seems no difference between St Mary's and the community primary school they now attend (out of London).

Its possible the temporary renter issue is significant for Coleridge - based on the fact that although the admission radius is so small there is a significant traffic problem created by people dropping children off at Coleridge East each morning. I have been quoted chapter and verse on this by local residents. Which suggests that a significant number of people live a surprisingly long way away... And of course temporary renters tend to try and rent really close thus shrinking the catchment further.

Also to invoke pure anecdote, I happened to be browsing in the (Excellent) Big Green Bookshop in Wood Green one day and got into conversation with someone who let drop that they:-

1. Lived just around the corner from the shop

1. had their two children in Coleridge School in Crouch End

1. Would love to live in Crouch End but could not afford the house prices

It did not seem the right time and place to ask them exactly how these three facts fitted together.....

He was living in the catchment for Coleridge when he applied for his oldest child, nlondondad, and he's not now. No probing questions necessary.

There's a definite proportion of families who have lived in the area for years and delay moving to somewhere bigger/more affordable until their oldest child is at school, although I'm not sure that I'd class someone who had been in the area over 5 years (probably before children) as a 'temporary renter' tbh.

The people that I know (many who travel to Coleridge and other 'desirable schools') all legitimately owned property and lived in the catchment area when they applied to school for their oldest child and moved subsequently, as people do in London. Several delayed moving until their eldest child had a school place in the area, but they had been living in CE for many years.

I'm not sure that the council's planning of school places has been able to keep up with the sheer number of families with young children moving in to CE. The year the Coleridge doubled its size to a 4 form entry, the catchment actually shrank if I remember correctly, as there were 59 siblings. I don't think anyone would have been able to predict that.

There are lots of 'shoulds', cgehansen, I'm afraid. I find it appalling that families that live in temporary accommodation are being further and further displaced, so that their children are frequently having to move schools as daily journeys of a 4 hour round trip plus transport costs are prohibitive to keeping their child as their original school. They are eventually offered places at schools with empty places, so the least desirable in the area.

These families should be able to have some sort of stability, and absolutely so should their children. I'm sure that these families would love not to be 'temporary renters'!

To play devil's advocate, if a family doesn't have the luxury of owning a home and has the flexibility and finances to move, why shouldn't they include schools in the decision-making process as to where they rent? People do when they buy; people buy in CE 'for the schools' in fact.

Unless people are saying that people who own property somehow have more 'rights' to a particular school than those who don't, of course...

There are of course lots of 'shoulds' and many people in very difficult situations but that doesn't the local school place issue isn't a problem as well. What happens is people who own a home already rent or buy another property near the school they want then move out again when their child secures a place. That's just a symptom of the shortage of places though by which I mean people who have the finances will temporarily move into the catchment area because if they don't they will end up in the same situation as us and everyone else who hasn't got a place at a local school.

But if you own a home and rent/buy a property near a popular school and use the rented or second property address to make a school application from you are acting unlawfully. Councils will and are able to crack down on this and children in CE have had places withdrawn because of this.

This is different from the 'temporary renters' discussed above ie when people choose to rent near a good school for few years, then move out once their children are at school.

There isn't an overall shortage of places in Haringey (and never has been), just shortages in places where people with young families crowd into for the schools.

Proper long-term planning about schools takes years; when the extension to Coleridge was planned and built, there would have been enough local places as it was partly expanded to accommodate the increasing birth rate. It was certainly very shocking when the catchment shrank the year the school expanded to 120 children intake, as no-one could have predicted the sheer number of families and their siblings moving into the area in the intervening years.

I am sympathetic to the difficulties of people living in areas crowded with young families, but my point is that I honestly can't see that the council have caused this problem. It's horrible to buy a place thinking that you're in catchment for a desirable school, then feel ousted by people who have bought/rented nearer and siblings, but I'm not sure how the council or anyone else could have predicted the sheer numbers of families involved.

On a practical note, I would suggest going to look around St Mary's. I appreciate the the religious aspect is putting you off (it would me too), but it's a very good school and might be a better option travel/social wise than Wood Green. Then at least you know that you're on all the waiting lists that you can be.

My two sons are both at Coleridge. We moved into the area when I was pregnant with DS1 when we had absolutely no idea about schools in the area. The year DS1 got a place, his friend who lives 2 streets away didn't and he been on the wait list ever since (they are now year 2). I would that the vast majority of both boy's classes live locally within catchment and the few that did move out did so for other (legitimate) reasons. It is a great school and it's a shame that there are not more schools like it. Not heard good things about St Mary's at all, I have to say. I also don't think you can blame people moving to an area to rent. We all want the best for our kids, right?

I should add that we bought in the area when I was pregnant. Not rented. Not that it makes any difference.

Anyone heard good things about Stroud green and Highgate primaries. They seem to have unusually large admissions areas this year so may be an option for us.

Fifteen children in the nursery at Coleridge didn't get places in reception for September 2015 and the catchment area was 0.24 of a mile, it's insane but from what I here there is some movement.

Highgate Primary does seem to have a wider catchment area and from what I understand is a lovely school. I've heard that the staff there are great and very dedicated and people who've got it in the past have been impressed.

Go and visit all schools in your area and get on as many waiting lists as possible.

There will very likely be movement at Stroud Green and Highgate if parents who didn't get their first choice decide to go private.

Also, talk to parents/carers with children actually in the school, rather than relying on gossip/outdated hearsay.