Primary school place shortage in Crouch End September 2015

[cgehansen]

Hi, Has anyone been affected by the shortage of primary school places in Crouch End? We put the 6 closest schools to us by distance on our form which are Weston Park Primary, Rokesly Infant, Coleridge Primary, St Aidan's, Ashmount Primary and Campsbourne Infant. We've been turned down from all of them and instead have been offered a school in Wood Green which is a 48 minute walk away. I know of at least 5 others in the same situation.

I'm trying to get a group of us together to take this up with the Council so if you are in the same boat or know somebody else in this situation in Crouch End it would be great to hear from you. Only in large numbers can we make the Council take notice.

[YonicScrewdriver]

"all moved within a mile or so, where the schools are also oversubscribed, so they wouldn't be able to move their child even if they wanted to."

This is very true; I'm sure it's often the case that if both siblings could be at the same, nearer school after a move, that would be preferable, but it's often not possible so instead both go to the same, but further, school.

[christinarossetti]

Yes, if this particular person had had younger child, she/he would have been allocated a place at their nearest school, meaning that the older child would have moved up the waiting list.

Still a gamble though. If no places come up, or other children are higher up the waiting list, she'd have had two children in different schools.

I'm sure that most of us would want to avoid that!

[matchingmoll]

"I don't think we'd have much in common with the other kids / parents at the schools there"? Jesus Christ.

[christinarossetti]

To be fair, northernlight mentioned not wanting to go 'private in Hampstead' as well as not wanting her child to go to school in the east of Haringay in the context of not 'having much in common with the other kids/parents at the schools there'.

Although the eastern part of Haringay is one of the most diverse parts of the country, and I think it's fair to say that Hampstead isn't, so I wouldn't say they were particularly comparable in terms of thinking what you might have or not have in common with the people whose children go to school there.

[Tottenaaam]

I'm glad to hear that northern light is wrinkling her nose up at my part of the borough.

To confirm what Cristina said, it is indeed very mixed here, both socially and ethnically. Shock horror there are even white middle class families here too, who have been priced out of other areas. The rapid change in green lanes with the opening of places like Bun&Bar and Blend is a testament to that.

Also, one does not need to be of the same ethnic/social background to socialise with someone.

The snobbishness on this thread is outstanding. Like another poster upthread said, it is very little to do with physical distance, but all to do with people not wanting their pweshous darlings to be mixing with the common folk.

[matchingmoll]

It is Daily Mail attitudes in Saltwater sandals.

[northernlight1]

OK. Apologies if I offended anyone with my comments. Perhaps they were a bit too sweeping and were used to emphasise a different point. Haringey Green Lanes is a great strip of London and I hardly know Tottenham at all so I should have been more careful.

If I really was a snob I wouldn't be wasting my time lobbying Haringey council to ensure my daughter has a fair chance of attending her local state school. I'd just opt out of the system trade in the Golf for a Range Rover, send her to a gated private school and buy the ridiculous straw hat, uniform an pleated PE skirt that goes with it. It would be so easy.

However, I believe in the state education system. I'm appalled by the report in the press today that 75% of the top graduate jobs were given to pupils who attended fee paying schools - I've interviewed a lot of them and there's a lot of money gone down the drain to put it mildly.

I'm trying very hard working with the council to ensure rogue temporary renters cannot snatch school places from local residents be they in a prosperous area or not. I will also lobby them to consider tightening sibling restrictions on people who move out of the area after securing school places. Any support would be very welcome. Or if you disagree with this you may be better served contacting them yourselves rather than lambasting my unfounded "snobbery" on here.

Tottenaaam, you are more than welcome to a guided tour of my former Leeds comprehensive school and all the "ethnic, social and common folk diversity" that went with it...

[cgehansen]

The issue here is about local schools not snobbery. To imply people who live in Hornsey are snobs for not wanting their kids to attend school in Tottenham is just missing the point. This is all about distance. If there are 6 community schools within three quarters of a mile from your house, one of which is 160 metres away, why would you want one 1.5 miles away? How will your child make friends in the local area?

Tottenaaam you have no idea what my ethnic/social background is so please don't make assumptions about that just because I live in Crouch End.

[matchingmoll]

Fair enough, northernlight1. It's a sensitive issue and schooling in London is a nightmare. Rogue renting is bad; I'm slightly warier of changing the sibling rule, as people can have complicated reasons for moving.
Everyone wants the best for their children but that can quickly curdle something less pleasant. I do think there's a tendency for people (not saying anyone in particular here) to think they can somehow secure a facsimile of private education on the state system by affording to move to the "right" area by the "right" school (ie with the "right" intake), and then be up in arms when it transpires they have to play by the same rules as everyone else. The council has a responsibility to find a school place for a child, not to ensure they never have to mix with anyone whose parents might not have a degree.

[christinarossetti]

Apology accepted by me at least northern!

I'm a bit cautious about tightening sibling restrictions overall in Haringey tbh. Lots of families in my children's school are in temporary accommodation and being involuntarily moved miles away. Then moved to somewhere else the next month and so on..

For these families, having stable school places and knowing that siblings can go to the same school (especially when they're moved mid year) is a vital point of continuity and can only help the education and mental well-being of the children involved.

So, at the moment for me on balance, I would rather than Haringay retained sibling priority. For OP, it means that she has to travel about half a mile to the outstanding school that she applied to after allocations rather than a closer one which isn't what she'd have chosen, but that's the reality of dense inner city living for lots of families.

[matchingmoll]

Distance is a bit of a red herring, I think. Yes, it's a pain to travel, yes, it seems unfair and it's inconvenient, especially if you have to get to work. But the state system is not a personalised service. I still strongly suspect people would schlep miles if it meant going to Coleridge etc without a second's hesitation.

[christinarossetti]

Yes and no re distance being a red herring.

Travelling half a mile to school isn't the same as walking to the end of the road or to a nearer school (OP's situation), but it's a 'local school' by pretty much any description isn't it?

[cgehansen]

Yes half a mile to school is a good outcome for me at least and it's a good and socially diverse school. There are many people who haven't been so lucky this year and in many previous years.

"I still strongly suspect people would schlep miles if it meant going to Coleridge etc" Yes this is probably true and I have no idea why. Not that there is anything wrong with Coleridge. That's not an argument to give up on children going to local schools. If there were better control over people getting around the admissions system there would be less opportunity for parents to get obsessed with Coleridge and genuinely local children would be able to attend.

"but the state system is not a personalised service" I'm not saying the system should be personalised, just that it would be better if children could go to their local school.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Do you perceive half a mile away as a local school, OP?

[christinarossetti]

Glad that you're fairly pleased with the school that your ds has been allocated cge.

Although getting a reception place there as a late applicant does sort of undermine any argument about 'primary school place shortage in CE' somewhat!

[nlondondad]

@christina

What your posting highlights is that the term "shortage" as in "shortage of school places" tends to be used with a number of different meanings.

In the London pan admissions system parents may indicate up to six preferences. On offer day parents get a single offer for the highest preference for which they are eligible. In Islington, parents who do not get an offer for one of the (up to six) preferences they indicated do not get an offer at all. Instead they are basically asked to hang on by Islington admissions as by the end of the admissions season, which could include creation of bulge classes, the vast majority of parents, often all but under ten cases out of a couple of thousand, will get at least one offer for one of their original preferences. And, including this year, those that did not get an offer for a preference will still get a place, just for a school they did not indicate a preference for.

So when an Islington parent says in April that they "did not get an offer for a their child" this can be true. But if they say there is no place for their child, they misunderstand the situation, there will, as a matter of arithmetic be a place for their child in September. Its just not clear where it will be. Yet. It is easy to see that this is a most stressful position for many people to be in.

BUT this brings in another meaning for the word "shortage" I entirely accept that if the Borough does not have a place for your child somewhere reasonably close, then the parent can complain of a shortage. Islington has shown it accepts that by having, in the past created bulge classes in the south of the Borough to meet demand there while they were schools in the North of the borough with vacent places...

Sometimes, however, when someone says "there is no place for my child" they mean at the single state school they had set their heart on. Almost always in my experience, when someone says they had to go private in Islington, as the borough had no place for their child they actually mean they did not get a place at the school they wanted and were prepared to accept rather than private school....

[nlondondad]

In haringey they do it a bit differently.

if a parent does not on offer day get an offer for one of their, up to six preferences, then they will be "allocated" a place at the nearest school to them with vacancies. In Crouch End this may mean a long way away in Tottenham. Journeys across the Borough by public transport can be difficult and I think it is not correct to assume that people who do not wish to cross the Borough have that position because they are put off by the "sort of people" who attend schools in the east of the Borough...

But just as in Islington, for many of those "allocated places" the "churn" will mean by September that they get an offer for one of their original preferences after all.

Had one designed a system to cause the maximum amount of stress for parents one could hardly have done better.

[christinarossetti]

I'm not sure what points you're making nlondondad.

I completely understand how the admission system works, although I'm sure other may find your lengthly descriptions informative. But you didn't need to address it to me.

I haven't said anywhere that anyone is put off my the 'sort of people' their child may attend school with in another part of the borough, have I?

My point in my last post was that, looking at things from a borough-wide perspective, the complaint that there is a shortage of places in CE for reception this year is somewhat undermined by the good news that the OP's child has been allocated a place in an outstanding primary school about half a mile from their home.

[AliceAnneB]

Haringey does have a significant forecast shortage especially in the West of the borough. I don't think anyone is being unreasonable to expect their child to one of the 6 most local schools to them. Schools do play a large factor for most parents in where to live.

[VikingVolva]

All LEAs have to deal with their shortages by September. It's the law, and what's described here is normal in all areas.

It doesn't mean that there isn't a shortage in the first place (unless you are a weasel).

[cgehansen]

Haringey forecast a shortage of 30 places in Hornsey this year. We now have a place but others still don't. As in previous years people move, home school or take the place in Tottenham. Hornsey Vale is particularly badly affected. The council don't disagree that it's reasonable to expect your child to attend one of the nearest schools. It's just funding and the admissions system sometimes prevent that.

[VikingVolva]

Just realised that might sound hostile about another poster. Not what I meant.

I mean it is Islington who is going in for weasel words on this.

They have a shortage. In previous years, they've dealt with it by September so fulfilling their legal obligations (just like all LEAs who had more applicants than places by offers day). That doesn't mean they weren't all dealing with a shortage.

[Tottenaaam]

northern apology accepted, I accept you didn't mean that comment in the way intended.

Tottenham is gentrifying now, though the change will take some time.

While there are some popular schools here, there are a lot that have been sadly neglected. One local school was subject to a scandal that was reported in the national papers, regarding the head and theft of school equipment, it certainly makes shocking reading. The difficulty is that so many parents do not speak English, which is a tremendous barrier to becoming invested in a school.

As I said earlier we also didn't get a place at our preferred school, and are also not in any catchment area sadly, though CE parents are relatively privileged as there are so many good schools locally.

We now face a very sad situation with our DD as all her friends will be going to the local school

[ljny]

We now face a very sad situation with our DD as all her friends will be going to the local school.

Loss of community is one of the fatalities of the current system. It's not just a nursery child losing her friends. It's a whole family losing the neighbourliness of shared experience with other families on your street. For parents, it also portends years of struggling without local support, without being able to exchange favours, pick up each other's kids, when family or work emergencies strike.

Schools are traditionally the glue holding a community together. Long ago, churches helped, but they're discriminatory and don't really help foster community in a diverse areas like London.

Op initially listed her six closest schools. In London, the council's two-mile radius is 3 or 4 communities away! No local childminder will drop off or pick up there.

My DGD scraped into her nearest school off the waiting list a few years ago. Now, most families on their street haven't a chance of getting in. Nor, of course, will they get the 'next-closest' or 'next-next closest'. They'll get a dump school miles away (schools where teachers 'yell at' the nursery and reception children 'a lot'. Those are the only schools with any vacancies.)

I already see some of these parents losing interest in local community efforts, even fetes, parties, plantings... as they bitterly start to research other options. It's sad.

As others have pointed out, most people want a decent local community school, only a minority are jockeying for top-rated cream of the crop.

I liked nlondad's story of Islington opening bulge classes in the south of the borough whilst vacancies remained in the north. That represents a true respect for community that, sadly, we're unlikely to see in Haringey.

[christinarossetti]

That's a difficult situation to be in Tottenhaam.

One advantage in living in east Haringey is that there is a lot of movement in the schools. Make sure that you're on the waiting list for every local school that you'd prefer.

I know a few people who have been in your situation locally and they've all received offers of places at one of their preferred schools, sometimes as early as the first few weeks of reception and at the latest at the end of Y1.

Some of them have taken the places, although others haven't because they've been happy with the school originally allocated.