Primary school place shortage in Crouch End September 2015

[cgehansen]

Hi, Has anyone been affected by the shortage of primary school places in Crouch End? We put the 6 closest schools to us by distance on our form which are Weston Park Primary, Rokesly Infant, Coleridge Primary, St Aidan's, Ashmount Primary and Campsbourne Infant. We've been turned down from all of them and instead have been offered a school in Wood Green which is a 48 minute walk away. I know of at least 5 others in the same situation.

I'm trying to get a group of us together to take this up with the Council so if you are in the same boat or know somebody else in this situation in Crouch End it would be great to hear from you. Only in large numbers can we make the Council take notice.

[ljny]

Yes, in both New York City and Chicago.

Depending on where you live, not everyone wants to. NYC has a number of charter, special interest, g&t and other options that you can apply to. Many middle-class parents do, depending where they live.

But everyone has a zoned school they can attend - for primary, middle, and secondary. You can rent or buy, commit to a neighbourhood, knowing where your kids will go to school.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Thanks! How do zoned schools cope with fluctuating populations?

[christinarossetti]

I don't know, but they manage it in Scotland and other places as someone mentioned upthread.

The op has fortunately been allocated a place - as a late applicant as well - at a primary school rated outstanding about half a mile from where she lives.

I'm pleased for her, your child starting school is an incredibly stressful time, but this situation, to me, doesn't scream 'school place crisis in Crouch End' to be completely honest.

I have no time at all for Haringey Council but they have and continue to be one of the boroughs most heavily hit by the cuts and their priority is to fulfil their statutory duty of offering every reception applicant a place, which indeed they have done this year.

[SchnitzelVonKrumm]

I think this has been said, but a major problem for Haringey is that councils are prevented by law from opening new schools and can only expand existing schools or hope that someone wants to start a free school. So stupid.

[christinarossetti]

Haringey haven't got the money to open new schools (even if they were allowed), especially when there are enough places in the borough ( including for late applicants) as this threadd illustrates.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Well, exactly Christina. I imagine they are feeling pretty good after several years when many boroughs have not enough places to place almost all children within 1 mile of home.

[ljny]

tiggytape - why couldn't London schools possibly take all children who live closest? With due respect, London's population density is well below New York's:

New York City has 27,858 people per square mile
Manhattan alone has 71,672 people per square mile

London has merely 3,900 people per square mile.

(Apols for using square miles, can't find it in kilometres)

[poorbuthappy]

Isn't the issue that people move to an area to get into a good school, then move away but don't change schools? If people 0.24 miles from a school can't get in, either there are hundreds of children living closer than 0.24 miles, or people have moved out of the area, meaning more families have moved in expecting to be able to go to their local school?

[YonicScrewdriver]

Haringey's population density is 22,000 per sq mi, says wiki.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Haringey

[YonicScrewdriver]

The population grew by 8.6% between 1991 and 2006 and is projected to grow by a further 5.4% by 2016 to 233,125. The male to female ratio is 50:50 and the age structure is similar to that of London as a whole although younger than the national average.

Haringey has a high proportion of young adults in the 20-39 age range and a low proportion of residents aged 45 and over. The borough has a high proportion of lone parent households.[19]

[ljny]

You make a good point, poorbuthappy. In a catchment system, if you move out of catchment, you go to your new catchment school. Which also reduces the pressure on school places for popular schools.

It wouldn't work, or course, for families who got their first kid into a good school, then went and bought a bigger and better house in a nearby cheaper area.

But at least, if you want to move, you have the security of knowing what school your children will go to from your new house. It's not the crap-shoot for families that London has become. I personally think that's more fair.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Haringey has 63 primary (including infant and junior) schools, 10 secondary schools, a City Academy, 4 special schools and a pupil support centre.

The number of pupils in Haringey Schools as at January 2006 was 34,990 (Including nursery age children).

[nlondondad]

what the recent posts illustrate is how meaningless "parental Choice" is, in practice. Its often vaunted by politicians of all stripes but in fact the resources needed to enable it are never there. Very few parents actually have any choice in the meaningful sense that they have at least two schools, nearby, into either of which they could get their child.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Yes I would agree with that, nlondondad. But then, I think that's pretty reasonable. Most of us don't have much choice on public services like which hospital we use etc.

[ljny]

The difference is, if hospitals are important to you, you can move into an area and know which hospital is covered (though actually, at least in London, you can often choose your hospital, eg for childbirth.)

Many families on my daughter's rather modest street have stayed because of the local school, with shrinking 'catchments' they're now unlikely to get in. The local school is decent, not great, but once you miss that, you're further away from any other school so you get assigned to the 'dump' schools.

And I know it's non-PC to say that, but seriously, I know those schools, so does my daughter, and I actually think it's criminal that any child is sent to them.

Op never said which Tottenham school her child was offered. She's lucky her family is Christian so whilst she didn't welcome the religious aspect, it's not in direct opposition to everything she's taught her child.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Then the problem is not lack of school places, it's variability or perceived variability.

As per the wiki above, haringey is a borough of highly varying wealth. I do not know how the perceived desirability of the school varies with the wealthiness of its local streets.

I continue to think that a borough placing the vast majority if pupils at a school within 1 mile of their houses is doing well.

[meditrina]

GLA on population densities by borough

Many boroughs are well over 10,000 per sq km (27,858 in sq miles is about 10,600 in sq kms) so not so different to NY. Though I'm not sure how useful international comparisons are because norms of land use, school size/type, numbers in classes, acceptable length of journey and support for school transport, and proportion of children within the headline population figures can all vary wildly. What I think it does show is the difference between London and the rest of UK.

"why couldn't London schools possibly take all children who live closest?" Because London wasn't drawn up to some sort of plan of metropolitan living, but developed ad hoc. Schools are often sited where the population was in Victorian times, or depended on which bit of bombed out land was available for purchase post war. And right now, finding a site at all for a new school is in itself problematic.

Also, to have meaningful parental choice, you need to have an oversupply of places (sources vary on how much: 2-5% being typical).

As in recent years there have even been examples of boroughs being self-congratulatory when (after creating 80 bulge class places) everyone has a place and there are 4 still vacancies in the whole borough. So it's easy to see how far 'choice' things really are.

[cgehansen]

I think the government guideline on oversupply is 5% to allow for parental choice. The trouble is it is borough wide so in some areas there is oversupply and in others schools are oversubscribed. The government and local authorities encourage children to walk to school and recommend a maximum walking distance of 800m from a primary which doesn't fit with the 2 mile distance rule. We applied for all 6 community schools within 3/4 of a mile of our house and didn't get offered any of them. Our closest school offered only 4 places on distance this year. Something's not right with the system we have at the moment. I have some sympathy with the council in that a significant minority seem to play the system. One local estate agent just told me they are forever renting out flats next door to Coleridge so parents can get the children in there then move out again. We're lucky as we got a place at St Mary's I guessing the admissions radius for that school will start shrinking fast. And this an issue all over London. I personally think a combination of catchment areas and a distance cut off for sibling priority would make a massive difference. And more investment in schools that aren't doing so well and perhaps less time and money spent on government pet projects like free schools and forced academies.

[SchnitzelVonKrumm]

I agree about setting a cut-off distance for siblings but we are in Muswell Hill and I can't think of any family I know that has moved out of catchment since getting their DC into my children's primary school (though I guess we'll see if they do after secondary admissions). So it seems possible to me that there are hundreds of children living 0.3 miles from school.

[SchnitzelVonKrumm]

I also wonder where on earth Haringey are going to put all these children are going to go when it comes to secondary transfer?

[YonicScrewdriver]

"The government and local authorities encourage children to walk to school and recommend a maximum walking distance of 800m from a primary which doesn't fit with the 2 mile distance rule."

Walking to school is encouraged where possible but not a blanket rule. The 2 mile cut off is for free transport and is a rule.

Along with much of the non London population, I do not have a school within 800m of my house so it couldn't be a blanket rule!

[hibbledibble]

cge which east of the borough school did you get an offer? I'm curious.

[christinarossetti]

Yes, the people that I know who moved out of Crouch End once their child had a place at their desired school (all schools mentioned in the list that OP gives) all moved within a mile or so, where the schools are also oversubscribed, so they wouldn't be able to move their child even if they wanted to.

I know someone that moved to another part of Haringay (the Ladder so not far) and did want to move her child more locally but has been on the waiting list for 3 years for a school that she can see out of her window. Of course she's kept her child at a (reasonably) local school where he's settled, thus 'depriving' someone who lived nearer of a place. No siblings, so nothing for future applicants to worry about in her case.

And St Mary's is about 500m from Weston Park is it not?