Primary school place shortage in Crouch End September 2015

[cgehansen]

Hi, Has anyone been affected by the shortage of primary school places in Crouch End? We put the 6 closest schools to us by distance on our form which are Weston Park Primary, Rokesly Infant, Coleridge Primary, St Aidan's, Ashmount Primary and Campsbourne Infant. We've been turned down from all of them and instead have been offered a school in Wood Green which is a 48 minute walk away. I know of at least 5 others in the same situation.

I'm trying to get a group of us together to take this up with the Council so if you are in the same boat or know somebody else in this situation in Crouch End it would be great to hear from you. Only in large numbers can we make the Council take notice.

[cgehansen]

I don't think there's anything to stop people in Haringey buying or renting a property close to a school and then renting their main home out and moving back there after the place has been secured. The council are aware it happens.

I did talk to the local school about bulge classes and siblings and they said it hadn't had much impact this year. The problem just seems to be too many kids and not enough places and that's been going on for years. People affected just move, go private, home school or take a school place a long way from home.

As far as the council are concerned they can offer everyone in Crouch End a place within 2 miles of their home so there's no problem. The fact that there are 6 community schools in Crouch End and there are local people who can't get into them just isn't an issue the Council are concerned about. It is something that the local schools and parents think is a problem but that's just not the way that the Council plans. It really doesn't make any sense to me why children can't just attend their local school. It seems to work just fine in other European countries.

I know it's playing the system but my advice would be to move as close to a local school as possible if you can afford to and hope for the best.

[christinarossetti]

Glad that your son has a local school place cge.

You can't get away with buying/renting close to a desired school whilst renting out your previous home btw. The rules are very clear that, for an address to be valid in a school application, you must have severed links with previous addresses either by completing on a sale or ending a tenancy agreement. The council can and do investigate changes of address etc

The problem is that the number of children in such a small residential area continually outstrips the number of places available. Most are 'genuine local residents' - there are just rather a lot of them!

[cgehansen]

In Haringey the rule "Applicants who own two properties will need to supply proof of Council Tax for their current address and documentation detailing the use of other property." means people can rent their home out and move to a temporary address closer to a school to make an application.

[northernlight1]

I think to get away with it you would have had to have moved into the new property and rented out the old property by the application deadline ensuring that council tax, utility bills, electoral roll, bank statements, broadband contracts and all else reflected the new changes of address such that you had no ties to your old place. Also, by renting out your original place you would probably be violating the terms of your mortgage and your bank would be entitled to place you on a more expensive buy-to-let rate. You then have the hassle and cost of the move to endure... with kids.

Most London LEAs do state that they will not accept temporary address applications solely to attain a school place so if you can stomach all the above you then need to be prepared to have your story straight should they decide to investigate you - which they may well do if your rented address has been used by others in previous applications. They will also investigate all changes of address so you would probably need to stay in the rented accommodation beyond Reception.

Then there is the morality issue to contend with as by doing all the above you will have denied a local child a place at the school he/she rightly should have got into. Given how badly ostracized some people have been on mumsnet for suggesting this practice you and your child could well find yourself socially frozen out at school when you explain to other parents why you are now driving to the gates in your Landrover Discovery instead of walking!

All LEAs need to do though is bring in the Wandsworth sibling restrictions and I am sure you will see a re-widening of cut-off zones (and fairer play by parents who might have considered the above) which would give them 2-3 years relief whilst they start seriously building more school places.

[cgehansen]

I agree completely but most Haringey don't see there's a problem so it won't happen hear. Where I come from in Germany children just attend the nearest school, all the schools are the same and there's enough room for everyone. If you move away then you need to move schools too. I know there are kids at our local school who live as far away as Essex and that just doesn't seem fair. What we need is for all schools to be of a good standard and offering the same education with admissions based on area, sibling priority limited to a reasonable distance and a relaxation of the infant class size rule. I guess the main issue is money though I.e. not enough of it or spent on the wrong things like free schools which seem like a very inefficient way of creating extra places sometimes where they aren't even needed.

[christinarossetti]

But in Haringay, most of the schools in the east of the borough are of a 'good standard'.

The problem is that people who live in Crouch End don't want their children to go to them!

Haringay are as hot on the issue of temporary renters who own another property as lots of other councils - but it's perfectly lawful to get your first child in to a school then exert sibling priority for years to come.

The people I know in Crouch End (quite a few) all lived legitimately at their address when they applied for their first child, then moved further away once their first child had a place. Generally not far - half a mile or so - but I'm not sure what they would be expected to do. Move before they were ready? Move their child who was happy and settled at a school which is still easy for them to get to?

I maintain that the main issue in Crouch End is far too many young families moving there 'for the schools' then being surprised that so many other people do the same thing.

[YonicScrewdriver]

"In London, it will never be possible for all children to attend their most local school. The population here is just too dense, land costs too much money and there is no appetite to relax infact class sizes to the extent that would significantly increase the number of local children being accepted."

Exactly. And if the vast majority of people are at a school less than 1 Mile away, most people are local.

[northernlight1]

People don't move to Crouch End for the schools, they move there because as far as central(ish) London goes its a very nice place to bring up kids. If enough people do the same then the good schools follow. Try getting your kid into a school in Stoke Newington (where they are arguing about whether to use the front or back gate of William Patten for the cut-off zone centre) or Clapham.

Do I want to send my kid to school in east Haringey? Not really. For the same reasons I don't want her to go private in Hampstead. I don't want us to sit in London traffic every day, I want her to make friends in the neighbouring streets and I don't think we'd have much in common with the other kids/parents at the schools there. That doesn't make me a snob or a revolutionary, just a realist.

If 210 children legitimately live closer than the stone throwing distance we are from Coleridge and Rokesly then fair enough, we'll have to think of something else. Maybe that explains why there's a 45 minute queue to go swimming at Park Road on a Sunday morning. CE has reached child saturation point.

What I don't agree with though is raiding the area of a school place by renting for a year, locking in your lifetime sibling priority and moving out afterwards. It's not right and doesn't make sense for any part of the community.... except maybe traffic wardens. The Wandsworth rule sets the record straight, its a great idea. All London boroughs with highly competitive school places should do the same.

[christinarossetti]

"People don't move to Crouch End for the schools."

Nonsense, absolute nonsense. A huge part of being a 'very nice place to bring up kids' is having access to what you perceive to be good local schools.

Everyone I know in Crouch End (more than quite a few) with young children factored the schools heavily into their decision to move there. Or to stay put there for a year or so before they moved to 'get their child in.'

When my children were younger, I used to play Crouch End bingo with myself. This involved the fewest number of verbal exchanges that took place before the other person asked where they were going/go to school. The conversation generally went like this, them - "how old is your ds?', me - " just turned 4". them - "where will he go to school?"

People with young children in CE are OBSESSED with schools. It's absolute nonsense to say that it's not a factor in families choosing to live there.

And I'm not saying that it's not relevant - of course I considered local schools when I moved with young children.

[christinarossetti]

"CE has reached child saturation point."

Yes, that's my point. Not to mention waiting lists for 2 year old ballet classes and god knows what else.

[AliceAnneB]

Just up the road Muswell Hill has a lack of places but Haringey are running a consultation on how to fill the gap. Why aren't they doing the same for CE? Or is CE suffering a bit more because they are closer to the East of the borough where there are more places?

[cgehansen]

"Everyone I know in Crouch End (more than quite a few) with young children factored the schools heavily into their decision to move there. Or to stay put there for a year or so before they moved to 'get their child in."

I think that's a very unrepresentative view of Crouch End. I don't know anyone who's moved here 'for the schools' and many people have lived here since they were children. The schools in Hornsey are no better or worse than any other part of London. I know some people have an obsession with Coleridge which I don't really get but that is a minority. I personally had no interest in schools when I moved here 15 years ago and don't know anyone who's been to '2 year old ballet classes' either although there are plenty of those running in Tottenham as well!

My impression is that some parents are obsessed with school places because they worry their children won't get into a Crouch End school. It should be simple. Your kids should be able to attend the nearest community school or at least the next one along from that wherever you live.

[christinarossetti]

But people do get to to attend the nearest community school with places that they apply to. That's exactly how the application system works.

The problem in CE is that the number of school aged children is increasing faster than the (actually fairly rapidly increasing) school places. The number of reception places in CE has almost doubled in the last 5 years.

Would people be happy with reception class sizes of 60, 70 or 80 children to accommodate all local children, with the loss of hall, playground, toilet etc space that that would involve? LAs couldn't do that by law, even if they wanted to.

[christinarossetti]

Alice, there have been recentish consultations in CE, hence a free school being build on the Islington borders, bulge classes, Coleridge intake being doubled, St Mary's intake being increased by 1 possibly 2 forms etc etc.

[YonicScrewdriver]

@l. It should be simple. Your kids should be able to attend the nearest community school or at least the next one along from that wherever you live"

Of course it isn't simple. Fluctuating but generally increasing local populations in London . Limited space to build schools. Infant class size restrictions. Probably decreasing numbers going to private school or moving out of London to a bigger house owing to recession. Immigration which tends to bring larger family sizes.

If you livr somewhere rural, you probably can go to your nearest school - it might well be more than a mile away though. Pressure on public resources is part and parcel of big city living; if the downsides outweigh the up, moving out is always a possibility.

[ljny]

*Where I come from in Germany children just attend the nearest school, all the schools are the same and there's enough room for everyone."

Same in the US, where I grew up. And Scotland does it. I've never understood the resistance to catchment schools here. It's probably a reach to claim "all schooLs are the same" but catchments do seem to produce better equality than the British system. Over-subscribed schools become over-crowded, hence less desirable, and to some degree things even out.

Ideally all schools would be equal - but that's a long way off.

For now, in Haringey, let's be honest. People in CE live in a naice area and expect to send their children to naice schools. Many in Tottenham don't have either choice. Some Tottenham schools are decent, others are dreadful. And these days there are primary 'black holes' in parts of Tottenham, too.

Haringey has a number of crap schools and I don't hear many residents of Crouch End worrying about that.

Finally, keep in mind the lesson of Downhills - traditional dump school, got a good head, became popular, Gove swooped in and forcibly converted it to an academy.

It's well known many Haringey schools face forcible conversion to academies in the next five years. This includes some oversubscribed schools in Tottenham. The naice CE schools are probably secure. I'm no fan of Haringey Council's education dept but in the current circumstances, and given what happened to Downhills, I could hardly blame them for just giving up.

[YonicScrewdriver]

You can't have fixed catchments, fixed class sizes and fixed school sizes. Mathematically impossible.

[ljny]

With catchments, you lose the luxury of fixed school sizes. Obviously.

Equally obviously, there are tweaks. Very few schools end up permanently larger, because there's a certain built-in correction. And sometimes if you get an influx of young families, they end up splitting a catchment area into two schools - which are almost always fairly equal, so it's rarely a big issue.

You gain a better sense of community, and it's easier to advocate for a school - and lobby for improvements where needed - if everyone in the neighbourhood goes there.

No system is perfect but English allocations are a mess. It's not just cities like London. We've had a number of threads about village schools becoming over-subscribed and a handful of unlucky families sent away. That's just wrong.

[YonicScrewdriver]

There is no space to expand schools indefinitely. Many have added bulge classes or permanent classes already.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Is it really true today in New York or Chicago that everyone can go to their nearest school?

[cgehansen]

That's the way it is in other European countries. Children go to the nearest school and there's no obsession with school places like you get here. It's not true there isn't the space to expand schools. It all comes down to money or lack of.

[Tottenaaam]

I've name changed to post here.

I live in Tottenham, and am also in a 'black hole' in terms of catchment area. There are far more of them in Tottenham than crouch end, as there are far fewer desirable schools here.

I believe the crouch end parents are i a relatively fortunate position, as there is a wealth of good schools in crouch end, which the vast majority get a place at. Though fortunate may not be the correct term, as living there depends on being able to afford the extortionate house prices. Myself and dh are both graduates in professional jobs, but would never be able to afford crouch end.

The solution required is not more schools, but better schools. There are still plenty of school places available in Haringey, just in schools that no one wants.

cge We most certainly do not have ballet for 2 year old in Tottenham. Believe me I have looked! We have very little here in terms of activities for children, meaning I drive to crouch end every week! I was told at my local community centre that they don't have anyone willing to run classes for children there as the council wants the same rents as in crouch end, and local parents wouldn't be able to afford to pay enough class fees to cover this.

Crouch end seems to have it all in terms of good play facilities in parks, good schools, play groups and community centres, whereas Tottenham is forgotten about.

[YonicScrewdriver]

"It's not true there isn't the space to expand schools."

It is true in some places.

OP, you have less than a mile to go to school. It's not that terrible, is it?