Don't want DS to be seen as "clever"

[andnowforsomemoreofthesame]

DS1 has started Reception in September, as according to his teacher, he is the most advanced in the class in numeracy, and is in the highest group for literacy. Although I'm not too bothered about academic achieving at this age, I don't like the idea of him being in the highest group.

Even though the teachers are clearly stretching him, I would like him to be in an environment where he is closer to the average.

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear, and I'm aware some people will just think I'm an idiot. But my point is that I hate to see people saying "clever boy" and things like that to him. I don't want him to think he is clever or better than anyone. I would like him to be in an environment where some children will be more clever than him, and where he won't be praised so much.

I'm saying that because I grew up thinking that I was clever, and it wasn't good for me. I am intelligent, but no one told me that intelligence is useless without focus, persistence, effort and a lot of other things. Today I like to be in a place where people are more capable than me, where I can learn. (and I have no proper career, which proves that being only intelligent doesn't get you very far)

I think he is fine where he is by now, but maybe in 2 or 3 years I would like to change schools. He is in a regular comprehensive primary (in London, and the range of abilities in his class is huge), and we can't afford private. I've heard I can try a grammar school when he is secondary age, or a scholarship in a private school. But is there anything I can do before that?

Any suggestions? Anyone in a similar situation? Any places I could take him after school or during holidays where he can be in contact with really clever children (because I'm perfectly aware DS is just an intelligent boy, not a genius)?

If you think I'm totally wrong, please don't flame me. Tell me WHY I'm wrong (if you CBA). I've changed my mind regarding education so many times in the last few years that, believe me, I'm open to different opinions.

Thanks!

There's a video of me as a child actually which illustrates this perfectly. I'm about six years old and I'm making a sandcastle and have collected a beautiful selection of shells which I must have imagined I'd press gently into the sides of my sandcastle to create that picture book effect. Of course as soon as I push the third or fourth one gently in part of it collapses and I start crying loudly while applying the next one, which causes half the castle to disappear, at which point I lose it totally and start squashing the castle and wailing in a total folorn broken mess. The camera pans over to my sister (my parents were totally unconcerned so I must have done that all the time!) who is happily stamping on imperfect sandcastles that my Dad has made for her, laughing uproariously and having a brilliant time.

now I gave a child like this who us now in Y6 and I agree with you on the whole.
There us a 'school of thought' that says that your child might 'plateau' and the others will catch up. I've been told that quite a few times, usually with a 'look, I was right others are catching up' except that he is still miles ahead everyone. And that's with me being very careful NOT to teach him things at home but to stretch him 'horizontally' ie anything else other than mathsor literacy (or English as it's called now).

Tbh especially if he us in a small school he won't be finding people to share his knowledge and interest for a long time. Or rather not his interest for writing stories. But you can stir him to teach to share other interests that other children can Enjoy too. It might be football (even though I hate it), taking him to beavers, etc.

What I found is that it's essential that dc1 had an activity outside school that requires dedication and bit always being easy. Fir dc1 it's swimming but it could be learning an instrument. Whatever takes time to learn and effort so he can learn to apply himself. with dc1, learning to tidy up has proven to be another skill he needs to apply himself too lol

Keep an eye in the areas where he has more problem. We all have done instead if focusing on academia only.

Last point, I don't agree with the fact the issues you are bringing now will go away and look insignificant later on. At 11yo, I still have exactly the same issues and worries. The difference is that I found a way to deal with them now.

Also re levelling out, this idea that children might stsrtcrewalkh bright but actually end up being average is a very British idea. Where I'm coming from, a child who is clever at 4 to us clever at 10 to if at 16yo. There is no 'levelling out'.
Just as there are no gap between boys and girls in maths starting in Y7 or at Alevels. Saying that it has been noted again and again doesn't mean it has to be the case. It means the system us geared towards levelling all children.

BertieBotts yes perfectionism, even if you don't feel you are putting yourself under pressure, its just there. I was/am a brilliant painter, I could sketch anything (not so much now) from age 3 everyone around me was absolutely fascinated by this talent and pictures were framed, some were given away, others went up in the school hall and in the Heads office, and some were sold. At age 21 I took every painting off the wall in my parents home and threw the lot on the bonfire.

ThisisLID
There is stacks of data to show that kids mature and learn at different rates.
In year R some of the kids are 25% older than others.
By the end of A levels that are only 5% different in age

Some kids learn basic stuff really well but cannot progress beyond certain levels
others get advanced concepts early but by age 19 lots of others have caught up with them

ability to read or do sums at age 4 is correlated but only loosely with long term outcomes

My kids are older but the brainiest one is the one who also is very comfortable not being good at things. Eg, He never minded loosing at board games and has always enjoyed team sports despite not being good. I always thought his attitude really helped him do well.

Unfortunately, it's my 'average' child who is the perfectionist. She is the most determined and hard working of all my 4 DC but it doesn't translate into exam marks. I wish she wasn't so hard on herself. It's so difficult to be a parent sometimes.

talking
Please read my post again.
These studies have been done in the uk and show that in this country these is just a lose correlation.
However studies in other countries do not show the same sort if correlation.
Which indicates that it's nothing to do with how the child mature and develops. But a lot to do with the education system. A system that assumed that children will level out so create the situation itself.
the same than in other countries it's girls that do better at maths Alevels whereas here it's boys .... It's the teachers and parents expectations that create that situation (can't be the girls brain/inherent ability if they can do better in a different system)

Actually the biggest cohort studies have been done in Scandinavia
and also in the USA, Australia and other countries

there is NO assumption of "levelling out"
but there is pedagological evidence of different learning rates

OP - Just because a child is not top of the class at numeracy and ready Harry Potter by the end of Reception does not mean that they are probably less intelligent.

My DH was one of those children who was reading chapter books before he was 3, was a maths whizz and basically ghastly child prodigy. I was very similar. His older brother didn't learn to speak till he was 3.5, didn't learn to read till he was nearly 6 and had zero interest in maths at all.

Both of them got scholarships to super-selectives; one went to Oxford, the other to Cambridge and BIL now earns about 5 times more than my DH and has added a post-grad and an MBA.

There may be several children in your son's class who are like my BIL - and who you are saying won't catch up.

What you don't want to be is like my sister - finished school at 16 with 10A at GCSE, 4 A's at A-level (pre A) with almost zero effort and then crashed and burned at University as she was too immature to cope. I would really warn against any child being away from their peer group.

My own summer-born DD is in Y1. She's a child that people have always commented on as being 'very bright', but she's also been far more interested in dollies and dressing-up than jigsaws and numbers. She only started reading at all in the last term of Reception - doesn't make her less intelligent, just wasn't something that interested her enough to want to do - and why not be more interested in being a Princess when you are 4...

She's now in Y1 and being given extension work to make sure she doesn't coast.

I do understand not wanting your child to be labelled the 'clever one', but if you like the school you have picked, then I would sit back and let them get on with it. There is far, far more to learn at school than just academics. Give me 10 EQ points over 10 IQ points any day.

Also, private schools may not be any better - my sister was at some of the most academic schools in the country, 2 years ahead and still coasted.

I think a child who is working a couple of years ahead aged 4 will probably be working a couple of years ahead aged 11. However a child that hasn't been hothoused might seem pretty average aged 4 but aged 11 might also be year ahead.

1 - I don't want DS to be on the top table. I want him to be in an environment with other high achieving children.
Surely the other children on the top table are high achieving . Other children are better at literacy than he is. Not really sure what the problem is.
In reception in our school because the focus in on learning through play then the teacher just called out groups of children to work with her, they wouldn't have known specifically what work that group did with the teacher they would have been busy doing other things. Therefore the whole 'we are the top group' never materialised.

I think the op has scuttled off. Perhaps not quite the responses she wanted..

BertieBotts I completely relate to your story. I think in some ways the experience of costing through schools makes us weaker. At least I fell I am weak for a lot of things.

Since I've had children I had, for the first time in my life, to endure something really difficult, and keeping myself together. It was tough (still is), and I grew up SO MUCH in these last few years. I wish I had been forced to step out of my comfort zone (and stay there for a while!) more often while I was growing up.

Mini your DS is lucky to be learning about failure and hard work. I think we should start a support group for people who grew up thinking they were oh so clever :) There must be a self help book about this, isn't it?

Oops, replied the thread and then noticed I've missed the whole page 4...

Bertie that's heartbreaking to imagine little you wailing because of the sandcastle while your sister just played happily by your side. I think I would be similar to you.

In fact, maybe I would just assume I would never make an excellent castle and avoid the whole thing, angry at the world, at the same time desperately hoping that someone would convince me to play in the sand. But not allowing anyone to convince me. (sadly, this pattern was repeated for most of my life in every situation where I felt some difficulty. God, I was/am a weird person)#

LardyDa that's a complicated situation re your DD. How old are your DC? I suppose that being a brainy person who is not afraid of failure is a great thing! I'm a bit jealous ;)

I get what you are saying OP. It's a personality issue as well.

Carol Dweck's work on mindset gets mentioned in this sort of discussion (apologies if already covered!)

There probably should be except that all of us are now too utterly useless as adults to be able to do such things as write a book It's coming out in a lot of blogs now, though, so I think there's both a generational element and I don't know about others, but I love and have always loved the internet as a communication and information gathering method, to the point that I don't understand why people don't google stuff or realise a lot of the time that some people don't really know how to use search engines effectively. I never really wonder about stuff because I just google it and find out. This means I know a ton of mostly useless information, and also am a bit obsessed with research over such innocuous things as buying a saucepan.

I definitely relate to the having children being hard as well, and I haven't coped particularly well, actually. In fact most of my "failures" have been related to parenting and my self esteem is taking a massive battering. I feel like I perform to the best of my ability on the internet and at work, DS and DH don't get the "best" or real me. (And yes, I know family don't get the best of you, they get the normal and the relaxed you, but I mean I find myself doing my "best" elsewhere and they never seem to see it. Except "never" isn't strictly true... hmm.) I am good at doing "my thing", reading, processing information, research, distilling that information to others in a clear way, applying theories to practice. I am terrible at most other parts of life. I seem incapable of remembering to grocery shop, maintaining friendships without actively reminding myself to do so, eating regularly, showering, making dental/medical appointments, generally having conversation with my family. I am good at the philosophical bits, the grand theory, helping DS learn to wash his hair, rearranging his shelves once or twice a year, creative solutions to discipline etc but I'm not great at getting up in the morning, making lunch before 2pm, making dinner which isn't frozen pizza (these days), reminding him to shower more than once a month, dealing with the normal irritations/demands of a six year old. It was easier when he was tiny (because he fit in with me and I could study him endlessly, like some kind of personal research project) and it is easier now he is more independent, but the preschool bit and late toddlerhood I found hard, when it gets repetitive and they demand structure and yet they don't respond - at all, whatever magical parenting philosophy you follow - to reason or open communication.

So then I feel a failure. What good is it that I can explain complex theories if my husband is stressed out because I have left every single bit of the housework to him, and why does it matter if my son has the ability to have fantastic conversations if his feet get rubbed before I buy him new shoes and he doesn't actually know what a dentist is at six years old? The problem is that while my skills are great, you sort of have to do the other stuff first to get anywhere at life. That eats and eats away at me. I am trying to learn to be out of my comfort zone but it's hard!

Oh, I soon got over the sandcastle and went and joined in with my sister :) We used to laugh when we watched the video. It was only now that I suddenly realised that it was illustrating exactly what I still struggle with now! Maybe it's nothing to do with school at all, and I've just always been this way.

Carol Dweck looks interesting... must go to bed but will have a look tomorrow.

If he finds learning easy thats great. We try to praise / value effort and persistence over actual attainment as that what the child has control over. So, for instance when the kids sat the 11+ the family meal to say well done was lunch on the day of the exam not results day.

Don't make academic cleverness the only thing he has to hang his self esteem on though as eventually he'll not be " top". Stretch him sideways and develop other talents you'd be surprised that whilst a lot of my grammar school kids peers were/ are , like them super busy out if school, some " aren't allowed" to have hobbies incase it detracts from the academic work!

Just enjoy him and let him enjoy learning.

Very much agree with kids catching up etc. I have academically able kids and it's only now at uni I reckon I can see how they really lie compared to their peers (and hilariously actually I think the eldest is only really getting the message slowly too!)

I agree with you, OP. People talk a lot about kids catching up on MN. Of course it's true you get some late developers, but in my experience the ones who stand out as being exceptionally bright in reception tend to stay at the top of the class all the way up.

I just wanted to share my own experience with the people who have talked about coasting through school and crashing at a later stage. I sailed through school (got 100% on my mock maths A Level), got a place at Cambridge university and suddenly found myself surrounded by very intelligent people. I got a third in my second year which was a massive shock (although to be fair I hadn't done any work so it was what I deserved). Luckily for me, the second year didn't count towards my degree, and I pulled myself together and got a 2:1 in my finals and went on to have a successful career (until I chucked it in to be a SAHM - which I loved. Back at work now in a new direction).

Having read your stories, I'm now interested in why my second year uni result acted as a warning but didn't de-rail me completely. I think it may have something to do with the personality trait you've already mentioned - being a perfectionist. I'm not a perfectionist at all. I'd rather do lots of things to a reasonable standard than focus on one thing and do it really well. Maybe this was why I was able to pick myself up after my poor result?

Anyway - interesting stuff.

Thisislid, agree somewhat with your post of 8:40

But some "levelling out" does exist, and progress is not linear.

My"genius" DS has been overtaken by others who hit their stride later, and my SEN 2-yrs-behind DS2 has by the age of 11 caught up, and (slightly) above average.

Anecdotal... But it made me think.

I think early years at school test rote learning (spelling, times tables) rather than true intelligence (understanding of complex concepts and abstract thinking).

Being good at times tables for example doesn't mean you'r actually good at maths. Though many people equate the ability to rote learn with intelligence.

If you feel there were pitfalls of being intelligent why not write them out and focus your support on supporting him on these and let the teachers alone?

Otherwise he will always think you're disappointed in him.

I identify hugely with coasting through school. Fortunately for me I discovered how to work as an adult - I basically needed to be in high pressure, very busy environments, recreating exam conditions on an every day basis! My very clever DH didn't have this problem though, he has always been a self motivated hard worker.

We are taking the opposite approach to the highly academic school route for DS - we are going to send him to a Montessori type school which focuses on self determination, individual goals and learning to cooperate. Hopefully this will help him develop soft skills and not be too concerned about what his peers are doing academically. That way it shouldn't matter too much whether he continues to be the 'clever' one or not. It's all a gamble of course, you can't really tell what's right for their personality when they're this little.

I think being in the top group / on the top table is fine. Someone has to be ! At age 4 it's early to say your DS is 'the only clever one'. I have some sympathy with your thinking though as by yr4 DS (who started reception unable to read) was having 1-2-1 maths sessions with the deputy head as he was far in advance of the top table. On paper this is brilliant differentiation & we know DS was lucky to be in such a good school but we felt it was not great for social development/friendships. We moved him for yr5 to an academically selective school and for DS it has proven to be a better fit. He is not top of all classes by any means.

I agree with other posters who suggest music or sport as a way to learn about perseverance, application and losing graciously.