Sorry, another reading one... how to stop DD from guessing

[Pozzled]

DD1 is in reception. Her reading has really taken off recently - her school don't use bookbands but she's somewhere around green level. The problem is that she is starting to guess unfamiliar words from the context rather than sounding out. Whenever she makes a mistake, I get her to use her phonics, but how can I get her to do this automatically? More phonics practice? Reading words out of context? Harder books so that she has to 'sound out' more often?

(Don't suggest I ask her teacher- the school would be quite happy for her to use mixed methods. I'm not.)

Barking at print is a problem depending on how quickly you give harder books. It probably depends on the Author. As the 4yo gets closer and closer to being able to read Alice in Wonderland, unless she has both an extensive and an antiquated vocabulary she'll be ever more able to pronounce the words and unable to understand what she's reading. Beatrix Potter has a few antiquated phrases but not many in comparison with Alice.

Two separate statements learnandsay

You see, it's all about context!!

Well my class have read and enjoyed Alice this year (I wouldn't inflict Beatrix on them)

The space between the statements should give a clue they weren't connected

Year 1

Whole words can be learnt without the use of flashcards.

Toddlers learn the meaning of words from context.

'Mum was cross' will be evident from the context, correct (unless the word was 'angry/furious/livid/something more advanced than 'cross') and is a quicker way of learning the word than sounding it out.

My 2 girls are exceptional readers and learned using mixed methods - jolly phonics was a part of this.... picture books were a part of it, "guessing" in context was a part of it, whole word recognition (tricky words) were a part of it -

Mostly they learned by having support to read in school and at home from us parents/grandparents/aunty/cousins etc.

The more they read the better they read...

We read it as a class. Sometimes they read and sometimes an adult read.

The year 6 classes I work with have mostly been brought up on mixed methods. Their reading skills are often atrocious- they skip over words, misread words (often changing the meaning quite considerably) and take a wild guess when faced with a new word such as a name. I worked with a group the other day who had the name 'Garnet' in their story. None of them said it correctly at first, even though it's incredibly easy to decode using phonics. They read what they think the text is likely to say, not what is actually on the page. I do not want my DD to go down that route.

Pozzled, you could be describing the Y7 pupils I work with! It is heartbreaking that these children, most of whom would have been able to read perfectly well had they been taught with consistent systematic phonics teaching and no 'other strategies', are not only way behind their peers, but will never catch up with them. Also that many of them are convinced they are stupid/thick, and, they lack the wide vocabulary, which can only be acquired through reading, which is essential to thinking and learning .

I agree that children are able to read a piece of text saying the words faultlessly without understanding what they are reading but with the children I work with this is not only a result of an extremely poor vocabulary but also, I think, that for years they have not actually expected what they read to make any sense; because the way they have been reading (as you described) it didn't make any sense.

It is more than annoying when teachers endorse the very 'strategies' which I am desperately trying to eradicate. But then, (with apologies to all you brilliant phonics teachers out there) most teachers of beginning readers never get to hear how poorly some of their ex-pupils read in Y7...

"I haven't seen any words upthread that would exclude the teaching of phonics with the exception of Mr and Mrs"

Don't despair, if you explain that 'Mr' is an abbreviation of 'Mister' and 'Mrs' is an abbreviation of 'Mistress' you can practise phonics with them.

'Country' on the other hand.....

Thanks mrz, it is getting clearer . Although I don't think all children taught using flash cards 'bark' at print, though some (maybe most) might.

@chocoluvva. Are you a teacher?

"In my experience, relying on phonics only will help some dyslexic children but holds very able children back."

When you meet a bunch of four year olds for the first time there is no way of knowing which ones have dyslexia and which don't. Dyslexic children have a specific learning difficulty and aren't stupid. It is quite possible for an extremely able child to hide their dyslexia for years. The dyslexia often becomes a handicap (and diagnosed) at a new stage of education like secondary school or university when the reading demands dramatically increase. It is at that point that the likes of MaizeD has to step in.

In most countries children start school far later than British children. Does it really matter slightly holding a four year old back and teaching them to blend and segment.

"My 2 girls are exceptional readers and learned using mixed methods - jolly phonics was a part of this.... picture books were a part of it, "guessing" in context was a part of it, whole word recognition (tricky words) were a part of it - "

Anedotes are all very well. You can find anedotes to prove any opinon.

Your daughters are lucky to be the 80% who aren't dyslexic. A child with no learning difficulties will become an excellent reader however you teach them. My son is also an exceptional reader and has been taught by pure synthetic phonics.

maizieD I'm 'glad' that you get what I'm talking about iyswim. But definitely not glad that so many children are being failed by schools.

I heard a reading support teacher the other day, discussing her work with a Y3 child. She was annoyed that they'd tried to sound out the word 'tail', and explained that they should have looked at the picture because 'of course you can't sound out tail'.

I do despair chocoluvva mainly at the lack of phonics knowledge of some teachers and yes reception know that both words are abbreviations.

country .../k/ /u/ /n/ /t/ /r/ /ee/ being a spelling for the sound /u/ as in trouble, cousin, young, touch being a spelling for the sound /ee/ sunny, messy, happy, dolly

Then you need to talk to the head and the literacy coordinator about it, unless they also believe that you can't sound out the word tail, in which case you're *ed.

I was a primary teacher.

I started this thread as a response to Mrz's assertion that, "Mixed messages give a number of guessing skills that are never appropriate at any age" and her IMO patronising remark that "Guessing is guessing and is never okay".

mixed methods ^^

So when is guessing not guessing chocoluvva?

I'm impressed at the speed with which you can think of other words with 'ou' pronounced 'uh' and 'oe' as 'oo', but I still stand by my point - two words don't constitute a useful group.

I started this thread as a response to Mrz's assertion that, "Mixed messages give a number of guessing skills that are never appropriate at any age" and her IMO patronising remark that "Guessing is guessing and is never okay".

That assertion is correct. So many children are confused by this - it's also hard to predict which ones it will affect, whether they are immersed in literature from birth, very clever or not so able. There's no telling who will struggle - but struggle they do.

It's not patronising - guessing is NOT reading.

My daughter knows the word shoe as a tricky word. She's never heard of a canoe. If the combination isn't often used, or in the case of oe, usually represents a different sound, I wouldn't mention it. My daughters need to know useful things not everything.