Sorry, another reading one... how to stop DD from guessing

[Pozzled]

DD1 is in reception. Her reading has really taken off recently - her school don't use bookbands but she's somewhere around green level. The problem is that she is starting to guess unfamiliar words from the context rather than sounding out. Whenever she makes a mistake, I get her to use her phonics, but how can I get her to do this automatically? More phonics practice? Reading words out of context? Harder books so that she has to 'sound out' more often?

(Don't suggest I ask her teacher- the school would be quite happy for her to use mixed methods. I'm not.)

Wouldn't dispute the teaching of phonics at all, understand the benefit.

Wonder at some irregularities though:

i) My brother took longer to learn to read than I did (made no difference in the long run. He is highly intelligent and has achieved more and higher qualifications than me.)

But anyway, my mother and his school 'helped' him along with flash cards and he was encouraged and progressed exponentially from there. Could just be what he is good at - pattern / sight /shape recognition, was always very / amazingly good at jigsaws from being a toddler.

ii) What are the phonic rules for word like lunging? - soft 'g' though how would you tell? Words like bunging (may be slang but you get my point don't follow the rule).

Just my curiosity. What are thoughts / opinions on this? As for OP's daughter I would have sounded out / told what the word was. Continued with supporting phonics progress in line with what done at school.

manoeuver, canoeist, horseshoe, canoeing, gumshoe, shoemaker, shoelace

snowshoe, shoehorn, shoebox, shoestring....

Lots of words can't be decoded phonetically anyway

Really, choccoluvva - which ones would they be?

See clattypatty's suggestions - read/read(/red), tear/tear(/tier) - feenie how do you suggest decoding those without context?!

There aren't any phonic rules ...
i) how quickly or slowly a child learns to read isn't an indication of intelligence or future success as your brother proves

ii) with phonics children are taught to try the most common sound represented by the spelling first and if that doesn't sound right try the alternatives so with lunging a child might try /l/ /u/ /ng/ /i/ /ng/ first then try the alternative /l/ /u/ /n/ /j/ /i/ /ng/

'oe' is in a group of two words. I hadn't thought of 'canoe'. So the child mustn't guess that the word refers to something in the picture or from the context of the narrative, but must sound out 'sh/o/e' and wait to be told it should be sounded sh/oo? As in bl/oo, thr/oo and wh/oo?

My understanding of the latest approaches to the teaching of reading is that phonetics should be the main tool - metastudies looking at research from several different countries (try sounding out the word 'country' is it an alternative spelling too? ) show this applies to texts in English as well as more 'regular-sounding' languages, but not the only tool.

and also, how then do you pronounce hoe (digging implement)? Hopefully not to rhyme with your words above! English may be phonetic but it certainly ain't decodable only using phonics.

Thanks mrz .

My use of the word 'rules' is quite loose, there are always exceptions but when does it stop being a rule?

Children know that the spelling can be /ee/ in meat or /ai/ in break or /e/ in bread they try the alternatives ... they learn about homographs right from the start.

It's very simple

English is a phonetic language
However English has a complex phonetic code

There are roughly 44 sounds in the English language (depending where you live)
There are 175 common ways to write those 44 sounds
English spoken words are represented by written symbols known as spellings or letters
a sound can be represented by 1,2,3 or 4 letters
a sound can have more than 1 spelling
one spelling can represent more than 1 sound

I am not a teacher, so feel free to ignore my opinon.

I think that children need a lot of practice with word boxes so that they can concentrate on decoding without trying to understand a story. Learning to read is hard and children need to start of simply with good decodable books so that they experience sucess.

Prehaps an advanced reader does use a range of strageries, but very few children in reception are advanced readers. (Except for these mythical mumsnetter children who are free readers aged four.) I think the OP is doing the right thing getting her daughter to use her phonics. It will eventually become second nature.

To prevent guessing I suggest getting a little bit of card and cutting a corner out of it. It will focus your little girl's attention on the word being decoded. Its worth getting a copy of the jolly phonics hand book so that yo know which are tricky words and which aren't.

I think its worth telling a child words like "the", but point out which part is regular and which bit breaks the rules. Children quickly get good at treaking words. There is a difference between and educated guess. (Ie. Canoe the part can is phonetic and the "oe" bit is very obscure phonics)

It's fine in practice ... and phonics isn't taught in a vacuum

'learning in read' is not just correctly repeating words
you mean like flash cards?

If you can't read the words it makes understanding very difficult.

It's great if learning to read can be coupled with enjoying the story and the beauty of our language. Some children can learn the phonics almost subconsciously (although it's helpful for it to be made conscious for spelling and writing).

"Just to be clear, in my mind, 'learning in read' is not just correctly repeating words but having an understanding of what they have read."

Rome was not built in a day.

Starting off with pure phonics gives a gentle introduction. Once good decoding skills are established the child can learn comprehension. It takes 14 years of education to produce a person with adult reading comprehension skills.

Although isn't it glorious if it can be done hand in hand.

It can be ... why wouldn't a child learning phonics not also enjoy stories and poetry and the music and pattern of our language?

ReallyTired I am NOT a myth! Although it does sound quite romantic .

My child's reading challenges weren't to do with phonics, neither were mine. We both could read on school entry. We both could understand books that we could relate to in terms of prior knowledge.

To give us mythical status, whilst quite exciting, is a form of prejudice which I don't appreciate... I don't like to be made to feel like a liar or a freak. Good job we can have the last laugh.

Chocoluvva l had to laugh at the idea that when my daughter reads to me it should be 'at least a bit enjoyable'. Well, yes. I'm with you on that. What I don't understand is why you think it wouldn't be enjoyable if she sounded out every unfamiliar word. There aren't very many of them- if there were I would, of course, choose an easier book.

I too was trained in mixed methods but have been convinced by the value of phonics. I have seen my DD pick reading up very quickly using this method, and there have been remarkably few words we couldn't 'sound out' together- 'one' 'Mr' and 'Mrs' are the only ones that spring to mind.

When she 'guesses' DD uses the context. She has good understanding of what she's reading, so her chosen word will make sense, but won't be correct. A recent example was reading 'clothes' when the word was 'costume'. Small errors like that may not seem to matter much right now, but if it becomes habit, it will matter a lot later on.

The year 6 classes I work with have mostly been brought up on mixed methods. Their reading skills are often atrocious- they skip over words, misread words (often changing the meaning quite considerably) and take a wild guess when faced with a new word such as a name. I worked with a group the other day who had the name 'Garnet' in their story. None of them said it correctly at first, even though it's incredibly easy to decode using phonics. They read what they think the text is likely to say, not what is actually on the page. I do not want my DD to go down that route.

"Although isn't it glorious if it can be done hand in hand"

Its not glorious if your child is dyslexic and can't cope with multiple methods. It is not glorious when a child is throughly confused by not knowing whether to use phonics, guess from the picture, use search lights, guess from context ...

Teaching a child requires patience. Lots of parents have hurry sickness and want to rush a child through the reading scheme without thinking whether they are ready for books.

A through knowledge of phonics gives good foundations for the higher level reading skills (like inference) which are developed in juniors.

It isn't what I said clattypatty

Read the words accurately for accurate comprehension

recent international research findings indicate that poor readers rely more on context than good readers