'we said thanks to God today mummy!' Really??

[unexpectediteminbaggingarea]

Apparently a 'special lady' came and told my son and his class that God gave them a special gift so they should all say thank you to him. And they did.

Does this kind of shit go on everywhere? It's not a church school. I am an athiest. My son, aged 4, is now apparently not. He says that, thinking about it, he now thinks God is real and the reason you can't see him is because he 'lives in a different country, maybe London'.

I'm actually quite pissed off about it (not the London bit, that was funny), but if it's what happens everywhere or is some kind of statutory thing I suppose I'll have to suck it up. If it's not I may write to the head.

Although I do think more time on geography and less time on God might be better for DS .

Seeker - I think the church does not want to let it go because it shores up its position, to have children institutionalised to feel they are CoE-by-default, even if they don't actively engage as an adult.

Meeting with the HT tomorrow about RE.

DD has been saying some concerning things about what has been said in RE class, which is not taught by form teacher. (See upthread if you want the back story).

So we asked for information about what was being taught and we were turned down. So now we are suspicious and worried, not only about what is being taught/the way it is beng taught, but why on earth it is being kept from us. We are finding it quite difficult not to feel that this is a common factor in religion: lack of transparency, lack of evidence, lack of information.

Our outrage at being forced into a position where we have to take time off work to find out what they are teaching our daughter is linked to our confidence that the school would not be acting this way if we were talking about Maths.

Anyway, I wanted to thank MNetters on this thread and my earlier thread for your thoughts on this. Even if we disagree I think it is so important to discuss this stuff. I am so grateful not to feel alone in our discomfort about religion in school, you have given me the courage to pursue the issue.

Upthread someone has posted links to campaigns to seperate acts of worship from non faith schools. I am definitely going to join.

Secular Society here
Humanist Society here
The Head ought to be able to show you the RE policy- I would insist.

Sorry - I meant syllabus. Generally schools have curriculum news and they tell you exactly what is being taught in each subject each term.

Thanks for doing those links again, exotic . And don't forget Accord Coalition which some may be more comfortable with than NSS/BHA - it has support from religious as well as non-religious groups and is specifically addressing this sort of issue:
'The Accord Coalition unites a wide range of member groups and individuals, who want all state funded schools to be made open and suitable for all children, regardless of their or their parents? religious or non-religious beliefs'

Don't just moan on MN, do something!

I may appear a bit ratty on the subject- for which I apologise. It is just that I generally give a link and say ' do something!' but I suspect that the majority moan and nothing more. If the majority made a push it would change.
There is so much ignorance on the subject- half way down a thread you can still get someone saying that they send their DC to a secular school when it isn't possible. There is very little difference between a church school and non denominational school- the interpretation of the Head makes a difference.
These threads crop up regularly- it will come again at Christmas

The Big Bang theory was originally proposed by Monsignor George LeMaitre, a catholic priest.

I hate the chasm between science and religion that doesn't exist in reality, but is a creation of fundamentalists.

I am joining Accord.

In addition to RE syllabus, ask to see their policy on collective worship. I don't know if all schools have one clearly defined; DDs secondary does (its an excellent GS with a great HT). I'll give you a couple of samples of it which some of you may find interesting (there's a lot more of it, its clearly been well thought through):

The head teacher is responsible (under the School Standards and Framework Act
1998) for arranging the daily collective worship after consulting with the governing
body. Daily collective worship must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian
character. The precise nature will depend on the family background, ages and
abilities of the pupils. *However, if it is inappropriate for some or all of the pupils to
take part in Christian collective worship, the head teacher may apply to the local for a
determination to have this requirement lifted.

XXXX is a non-denominational school. Assemblies may broadly reflect
Christianity, other formal religions or none.*

1. Definition of Collective Worship

Worship derives from the Anglo-Saxon word meaning honour, and worship can be rendered: to deities, or to people of excellence, worthy of honour or respect, and by extension to concepts, principles and conduct which are worthy of celebration and held to be of central importance to the community which worships. Although worship is often regarded as veneration paid to a supreme being or power, worship in schools must necessarily be of a different character. (Circular1/94 p 57 Dfes) At XXXX worship is defined in the broadest sense of the word, and places especial emphasis upon the celebration and honour of achievements, ideas and values which are central to the ethos of XXXX. Collective Worship is not the same as Corporate Worship and is thus able to accommodate individual rather than uniform responses. *It does not require any responses which assume or imply that pupils are united in faith and commitment.* Collective Worship is a time when the whole school, or groups within the school, meet together in order to consider and reflect on common concerns, issues and interests. It offers all pupils an opportunity to engage in relevant, meaningful experiences and provides opportunities for the pupils? spiritual, moral, social and cultural development

The ethos of the school strongly promotes development of individual beliefs and
values. Pupils are encouraged to develop respect for others who express their
spirituality through diverse religious traditions or secular beliefs.

I don't think they can refuse to show you the syllabus or policy on collective worship-ask them why they are hiding it - telling them you will write to Ofsted should do the trick!

Exotic - there is ignorance because it is a new crop of parents each year flabbergasted that this kind of thing still goes on in the 21st Century - I agree, join the NSS, BHA or Accord, but having a moan/discussion is also OK. Each year there will be new parents asking AIBU in the face of a state establishment that presents this anachronism as completely reasonable.

Wow Grimma - thanks!

I don't want to get into a confrontation, but will do an FOI application if I have to. DD is only Y1, so feel we should try and maintain good relationship for her sake. Also, I want to get on the governors, and influence the school to communicate properly!

They do need to do something- even if only writing to your MP. Moaning on MN is useless as there will still be parents next week, next month and next year who are completely unaware of the education acts. It wouldn't even surprise me if someone joins this thread without reading it and once again tries to tell us that their DC is at a secular school.

Do come back and update us Catmint- I am interested in how, or why, a Head will withhold information.

Grimma that policy makes interesting reading, and is very reassuring! Thanks.

catmint - I found Circular 1/94 which is the official guidlines on everything to do with RE and collective worship - if yours is a 'maintained school' then one of the 'action points for head teachers' is 'Make RE syllabus available on request (paragraph 122).'

Just to clarify - I think the guidance on RE has been superceded by a 2010 document (which I've not found) but the 1/94 is still current concerning collective worship.

I don't see why one needs to specify whether a story is literally true unless the child asks - do you explicitly say The Gruffalo is made up every time you read it?

Isn't that how many people who start these kinds of threads end up having to deal with it, because their children have come home and said 'mummy is it true that...?'? For example 'is it true that Jesus died for our sins?' or 'is it true that when we die we go to heaven?'. At that point someone like me has to tell their child that no, it isn't true and then go through the whole 'some people believe it' stuff. Something many of us would rather not be doing because up to that point our children have not heard a word about religion.

Thanks Grimma, you are a mine of information!

Exotic, I will update.

but off to my bed now!

Auf - well, its only reassuring in that it proves what can legally be done if the HT cares - I suspect that most schools (esp primaries) haven't got 'determinations'. Note that this school is majority 'white british' - the school doesn't have to be inner-city, obviously multi-ethnic to get a determination (though it probably takes determination to get one!)

I have never taught in a secondary school that was not to all intents and purposes secular. It is primaries that seem to make a conscious decision not to be.

And as far as I am concerned, people can be as dismissive as they like about religion, as long as they don't imply I know nothing about Science. So I am no help in answering SGB or seeker's questions...

Grimma - my DSs secondary school policy have something similar. I think the "Anglo Saxon" bit is some kind of informal boilerplate text that HTs use instead of saying "don't be silly, of course we are not going to try to make transfers sing All Bright And Beautiful, what do you think we are, mad?!?"

I don't think having a policy means they have a 'determination' (I .e. get out from the Christian worship requirement?) ...just they are interpreting it in the broadest and most wishy-washy way possible.

Eventually I do think that if enough people moan, this law will go the way of laws about longbow practice etc... And just fade out of practice.

Hima - oh good, glad that others are similar. But as fallen says, its primaries which tend not to - while still within the law - do what they could to secularise in the way secondaries do.

Primaries tend not to because they can all get in the hall and they sit on the floor. Secondaries can manage to get around it by lack of space and large numbers and you can't get them cross legged on the floor.

duelling fanjo

"Stranded, when/how was she given this work? If it wasn't part of the collective worship (Assemblies) then does this mean they were actively teaching this in a lesson"

Yes - in a RE lesson apparently. We were furious but didn't know about it until she brought her work home at the end of the school year. We have a parents meeting with her new teacher, who is also the head of infants and deputy head, next week and yes we will be bringing it up. It is a CofE affiliated school but it is also our local state school, our community primary three minutes from where we live and we would not have got her into any other schools within walking distance because they were all over-subscribed that year. So we don't have a lot of choice about where she went, and nor would I want her to go to any other schools. It just pisses me off that they peddle that religious crap to such young children - for f**ks sake why not just tell them which political party they should all support at the same time???
Can you tell I'm spitting mad about this?

exotic - its not just the logistics - secondaries still do have assemblies even if they're by year group not the whole school en mass, but the content which is more generally acceptable. More likely because older children aren't so trusting and teachers know they simply won't wear having worship imposed on them on a regular basis.

Trust - that's what I find so bad about the issue. The little children trust their teacher - which (up to a point) they ought to be able to do. Parents don't like being forced into the position of telling them they can't trust some of what the teacher says.