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Primary education

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Low Aspirations

294 replies

IndigoBell · 25/04/2012 19:28

Bloody hell I'm cross.

Why do teachers have such low aspirations?

How dare DDs teacher be happy with her attainment. Happy - as in rushed out of school to tell me how well she'd done in her latest test.

On track to almost get a C at GCSEs - and he's happy :(

I hate school. Every bit of it.

There is no expectation that children will do well - only that they'll make a set amount of progress each year.

Children are always told they're brilliant and wonderful - they're never told they're not doing well and they're actually going to have to work hard if they want to achieve something.

No expectations that a child will do well :(

The culture here sucks.

School thinks it's better to have a failing happy child - then a child who works hard :(

But because they make school so fun and engaging she refuses to let me take her out and teach her at home :(

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mathanxiety · 28/04/2012 18:07

I know children from one particular family who are now (1) DS an architect (2) DD a SN teacher thanks to technology that enabled them to access the curriculum from about age 10 onwards when it was clear that trying to get them reading and writing would result in frustration and disengagement with school, and falling far behind the levels needed to even think of university.

The architect owns his own house, obv has a bank account, has a job with a large firm, uses his computer and laptop and gps and other tech extensively both for work and general life. Does his banking online. He has been out of university for six years now and has managed to keep his job despite the collapse of the housing and commercial building sectors. Tech help was used in exams and in the classroom ni secondary and uni.

The SN teacher works with profoundly autistic children, her first job after graduating from university, where she also made extensive use of available technology for accessing the coursework and doing papers, assignments, etc. She lives in her flat, does her banking online, drives her car, keeps up with her friends including DD1 on fb. Tech help was used in exams as well as in the classroom through secondary and uni.

The parents were averse to banging their heads on brick walls. (And their children could put together sentences far more intelligible than the sentences you have posted, Indigo.)

I think you should think poorly of a school that allows someone without qualifications to get directly involved in the education of anyone else's children except in your role as governor. I think you would be doing everyone a favour if you in your role as governor tried to see where the school would come up with the means to pay for the software and other tech that has been developed and tested specifically with problems like your DD's in mind.

'If I fail and she doesn't make 4 years progress in the next 2 years, then I'll have to decide whether to send her to secondary school, and make use of technology if necessary, or home educate her, or send her to a specialist dyslexia school, or send her to Summerhill.'
-Four years' progress in two years would be a tall order even for a child who could read and write, Indigo.

'But at the moment, it is far too early to consider using technology to help.'
-Your head is in the sand and you are playing god with your child, and the children of other people too according to your previous post.

'In general, you should not do something for a child that they can do for themselves. Which is why she shouldn't have a scribe.'
-This is not an 'in general' situation. She cannot write for herself in a way that other people can understand the meaning she wishes to convey. What you posted here of her efforts demonstrates that abundantly. That is why she needs the technology.

'Would you use a reading pen and dictation softtware with a 4 year old?'
-No, and what a really silly argument. Dictation software wouldn't be used for a four year old, or a reading pen. But a child who has been completely failing to make progress to the level where her iq indicated she should be by the age of 9/10 is a child who needs tech help.

Learning to read and write will help her far more than a string of GCSEs.
-I think you are wrong there and I think you may be the first person I have ever come across who thinks actual qualifications or proof of achievement don't count.

I would never employ somebody who needed extra time to get the job done or who couldn't read or write. So I don't see how getting those considerations in exams help her.'
-Well for starters shame on you for your attitude.
As mentioned, the architect and SN teacher that I know are able to manage perfectly well using all sorts of technology to qualify for and get and perform well in excellent jobs, with nobody waiting around for them to finish.

mrz · 28/04/2012 18:07

An adult needs to be able to read the majority of the work without assistance from the child it would be a stretch but not impossible.

IndigoBell · 28/04/2012 18:09

Feenie - this is ridiculous. They haven't given me a single honest level ever.

I think I'm going to say flat out that I don't believe she is a L2 - and that he needs to read with her to assess her reading rather than just mark a comprehension paper. :(

Could she be a 2b in reading and still need a reader for her maths test? Or would you think that sounds quite generous?

OP posts:
mrz · 28/04/2012 18:10

I should add I'm a harsh marker

mrz · 28/04/2012 18:14

I would expect a level 2 reader to be able to read the questions (perhaps needing help with a few words) but not a reader.

Feenie · 28/04/2012 18:16

No, I think that's possible, Indigo.

Mathanxiety, lay off, fgs. This isn't the place to be so aggressive.

nkf · 28/04/2012 18:17

There seems to be a number of problems but she does like school. So that isn't one. I'd get her a tutor. Lots of kids don't want to be taught by their parents.

IndigoBell · 28/04/2012 18:20

Adela - I'm not blaming her teacher anymore. I was just upset when I started the thread. Her teacher's doing his best.

(and he's moved her up a maths table :) )

And I don't want her on any other interventions - I'm happy with what she's currently getting.

I am not happy with the inaccuracy of her levels - but that doesn't necessarily imply there is a teaching problem. I think it was a combination of honest mistakes and cognitive bias. She's made so much progress this year (you should have seen her writing a year ago Blush) that it's hard to believe she hasn't gone up a sublevel.

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teacherwith2kids · 28/04/2012 18:22

It's hard to assess on such a small amount of writing - for a level 2 we would normally expect at least half a page of writing. Also, to be assessed as a level 2, the majority of the work must be able to be read by an adult without assistance from the child (I do allow some letter reversals within this so if the odd d comes out as a b I will try both in my attempts to decode what a child has written).

Do you have examples of your DD's writing in school? Is it significantly different from the example you have posted, in particular in length and in the 'phonic reasonableness' of her spelling? Pat for pot, for example, is the kind of thing that makes my Level 1 children Level 1 IYSWIM....

IndigoBell · 28/04/2012 18:29

She's happy to write pages in school. There is no problems with quantity. She likes writing.

She needs to be reminded to put in punctuation - but once reminded can go back over her work and do it independently.

But it is spelling that is the problem.

When you say 'read by an adult without assistance' - thing is the teacher can normally guess what she writes, because he's set the task. Would you assume that to mean read by any adult? As opposed to her teacher?

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mrz · 28/04/2012 18:33

I take it to mean that it can be read by anyone (not just those that know the child)

mathanxiety · 28/04/2012 18:38

The family that I am familiar with equipped their children with technology so that they could convey their meaning to everyone, not just the individual primary classroom teachers who could hazard an educated guess. The children were in mainstream classes in secondary as a result.

mrz · 28/04/2012 18:41

how does someone who needs technology to read and write teach children with SEN ...

Roseformeplease · 28/04/2012 18:42

FWIW I am a Secondary English teacher and we have pupils, occasionally, who struggle to read. We offer them support (reader, computer etc) so that they can access the curriculum along with everyone else. In parallel with that, they are given separate support with reading. We have one boy who could not read at all on arrival and not for lack of trying (tiny primary school - lots of help). Once at Secondary he got help and became driven to improve and now, 3 years on, reads well. Children develop at all different paces and ways. For reading, I would carry on with the extra support, at home and school, for subjects such as History, so she can access the curriculum with others. I would also give her loads of time to read at home - something you are already doing. We have a lot of success using audio books where they follow along in the real book. Or paired reading where they take it in turns with an adult as then they can cover more complex texts and enjoy the book, while also practising vital skills.

Additionally, writing is not just about spelling. Being able to organise and structure pieces is equally important and a scribe can help. You can get some really good software that predicts what you want to write and supports children in writing longer and more complex pieces.

All of these things will help. The most important thing is that the struggle to read does not take away from the sheer wonder of a good book. Once children realise the world that reading opens up to them they often make huge leaps forward. Or the struggle to get it right does not stop them from wanting to write at length.

Sorry if all these things have been covered but I wanted to show you that all the levels and sub levels are not everything and that you can do well even if you arrive at Secondary School with reading problems.

Good luck. You sound like you really care about her and want what is best. I hope the advice here helps.

teacherwith2kids · 28/04/2012 18:47

Indigo, like Mrz, we take it to mean 'an adult who does not know the child or task but is reasonably familiar with children's writing at a general level'. For example, when we moderate to check that marking and levels are the same across the school, we remove the child's name and details of the task set from the examples of writing, BUT all of us are working in school so read children's writing all the time.

mathanxiety · 28/04/2012 18:51

She is in a classroom with a group of six children who are profoundly autistic and mostly non-verbal, aged five and six and all with IEPs. She uses her computer/software for the reading and writing bits that she needs to do.

Roseformeplease you have conveyed the essence of what I have been trying to get across here.

IndigoBell · 28/04/2012 18:51

Rose - thanks for posting.

I know that the practicalities of not being able to read and write can be overcome at secondary school.

What I'm more worried about is
a) being placed in the bottom set
b) in general being teased and bullied about her problems.
c) leaving school with no qualifications - so in effect wasting 5 years she could have used better.

It's going to be very hard to convince secondary school she shouldn't be in the bottom set :)

No kids in the bottom set pass their GCSEs

And other kids being mean to her is not exactly something school can do anything about.

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teacherwith2kids · 28/04/2012 18:51

Also, by the way, I'm with Rose in the sense that I would be generally open to the idea of technology being used judiciously to help a child like your DD access the wider curriculum BUT that when reading, writing and maths are being taught directly I would expect teaching and support to be directed towards her reading, writing, and doing maths without those technological aids IYSWIM.

teacherwith2kids · 28/04/2012 18:58

Are there sets in your DD's future secondary? I know that for my DS's future school, there are no sets in Year 7 except for Maths, and that for the next 2 years there are separate sets for English and Maths (ie you can be in the top for one and the bottom for the other) and mixed classes for other subjects. SEN support is provided within those mixed classes, in the same way as in Primary.

So your DD could be getting exactly the same educational experiences as everyone else [rather than the stereotypical 'bottom set' experience you are imagining] in most subjects with appropriate support....

Have you spoken with her future secondary about how they would support and work with your DD?

IndigoBell · 28/04/2012 19:00

I'm not against technology being used to help at KS3. I just don't want to use it at KS2.

And I dont want her to do KS3 if we don't fully overcome these difficulties.

Although of course who knows whether I'll be brave enough to get her out of school.

Particularly since she is a superb athlete (ranked no. 2 in the UK in her age group :) )and there's an excellent secondary school for elite athletes near us.

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MadameChinLegs · 28/04/2012 19:01

Oh my word, a Primary School teacher is rushing out to tell you that 7 years time your DD will probably get a C grade? How is that even possible for them to predict?

GCSE marks are down to how the child performs at Secondary level, the quality of the Secondary teaching, the ability off the Secondary school to motivate and inspire your DD to do well and the support and gentle determination of the parents to get the best out of their child. How they can say that this is what she is expected to get is beyond me.

Feenie · 28/04/2012 19:01

Wow! That's very impressive!

IndigoBell · 28/04/2012 19:03

Teacher - the secondary school DS is going to withdraws kids who can't read from the first lesson every day - and teaches them to read using Read, Write, inc.

Sounds excellent - except shes already had 3 years of RWI, and this is the result :)

I'm not sure what the sports academy does. I will look round it in Oct and ask all of those questions.

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Roseformeplease · 28/04/2012 19:04

Sorry, can't help much with your concerns about sets except to say that a good secondary ought to set based on her ability, rather than just spelling or levels. You should be able to argue that, for example, she can cope in a Higher set with support. Support should not just be offered to the bottom set. We have 2 very dyslexic pupils in our top set and they cope very well using an assistant and audio books. They would be miserable in the bottom set as their ideas and verbal skills are very well developed. You will need to fight this battle when it comes round but I am always happy to give it a go with children who don't fit the "normal" criteria for a top set as, with support, they may well cope very well. NB caveat - I am in a tiny school with tiny classes so our pupils get lots of attention. (not private) so it may not be what you will get where you are.

mrz · 28/04/2012 19:04

I would imagine it's very difficult with the normal day to day paperwork involved in teaching