Low Aspirations

[IndigoBell]

Bloody hell I'm cross.

Why do teachers have such low aspirations?

How dare DDs teacher be happy with her attainment. Happy - as in rushed out of school to tell me how well she'd done in her latest test.

On track to almost get a C at GCSEs - and he's happy :(

I hate school. Every bit of it.

There is no expectation that children will do well - only that they'll make a set amount of progress each year.

Children are always told they're brilliant and wonderful - they're never told they're not doing well and they're actually going to have to work hard if they want to achieve something.

No expectations that a child will do well :(

The culture here sucks.

School thinks it's better to have a failing happy child - then a child who works hard :(

But because they make school so fun and engaging she refuses to let me take her out and teach her at home :(

Yes, her inability to spell and her inability to remember vocab are both caused by severe memory problems.

My point was that if she had a reading pen and a scribe - she still wouldn't be have been able to tell you what she learnt.

I'm not sure what you find confusing:

• I send her to school to learn to read, write and add up.

• Compensating strategies (such as reading pens and scribes) don't teach her to read and write.

• But they mean that she does less reading and writing then she would otherwise (and they send her the message that learning to read and write isn't important.)

• Therefore they actually stop her from learning to read and write.

• Therefore I think they're a really bad idea.

• If she's not going to learn to read and write, I see no point at all in sending her to school.

To be honest, I find your whole attitude deeply confusing, as Math has pointed out extensively.

If Indigo is coming across as confusing, then I think it's a mark of the sheer frustration that she feels as a parent after all that she has been flannelling she has put up with over the years - which I can fully understand.

I'm asking purely out of interest, Sunscorch - but do you have children yourself?

Why do you want her to read and write? What is so magical about those two skills that you are willing to let her flounder and be frustrated and suffer the pity of the other children in order to force her over those obstacles? All the time while you are insisting that the school and your DD jump through your hoops her self esteem is being eroded.

Dictation software would eliminate the need to write.
A reading pen would assist in decoding the material.

It has to be incredibly frustrating for a child so bright to be faced with relearning to decode pretty much every year or to be ahead of the class in multiplication tables and unable to finish the test.

'DD is nowhere near the worst in the class. Therefore no lesson relies on a child being able to read. So she doesn't need a reading pen.'
I fail to see the logic there. The other children may be worse than your DD for any number of reasons including horrible, chaotic home environments, deafness, and whatever it is that Mrz's student has experienced. Your DD is where she is because she cannot read the material or answer questions in exams in the time allotted. That is where the scribe and the reading pen come in.

'I also fail to see how a scribe teaches her anything. What does she learn from dictating something, when she can write it herself?'
She is not learning from dictating. She is showing the teacher how much of the material she has absorbed and made sense of.
She is not supposed to learn writing from a scribe - that is not the point of the scribe.
She is not learning to write intelligibly from anyone it seems. Hence the need for the scribe.

From your posts, I don't think you understand what the school is trying to achieve or how they are setting about it. You have admitted as much. Yet you insist that their efforts are doomed because they are somehow getting whatever it ts that they are doing wrong.

Your fixation with reading and writing is blinding you to what the school might be able to achieve with her if you only gave them the chance.

I think you need to stop insisting your DD needs to learn to read and write and open your mind to the possibilities technology offers her, instead of the relentless focus on the negatives, the statistics, the GCSE projections. 'She is nowhere near the worst in the class, and there are loads of kids further up the school who also can't read and write. So there is no reason to believe school can teach her. None at all' -- this sort of thing. She is your daughter, not some project to be managed.

'I send her to school to learn to read, write and add up. (---> Why?)

• Compensating strategies (such as reading pens and scribes) don't teach her to read and write.
• But they mean that she does less reading and writing then she would otherwise (and they send her the message that learning to read and write isn't important.)
• Therefore they actually stop her from learning to read and write.
• Therefore I think they're a really bad idea.
• If she's not going to learn to read and write, I see no point at all in sending her to school.

This post of yours is all terribly wrongheaded and makes no sense from foundation up. She has problems that are preventing her from reading and writing and adding up. She is bright. There is material to be covered that would interest her. Give her the tools she could use to master the material.

Why do you want her to read and write?

Why do you want her to read and write?

Er... are you serious? It's not "magical", it's fundamental.

To just about everything.

Why shouldn't she want her to learn to read and write?

And I'm asking genuinely because I can't think of one reason. I'm as confused as Feenie.

mathanxiety I really can't believe that you don't feel it is important that she learns to read and write.

As a someone who is dyslexic and has learnt to read, write and spell adequately, I have experienced the issues and the knock on effects that deficits in this area causes.

Without the development of coping strategies and interventions by my mum regarding this, then I would not be where I am today.

Everyone should be able to read and write as a basic necessity.

'Why do you want her to read and write? What is so magical about those two skills'

Words fail me....

Is this a question of dyslexia Wigglywoo?

'Compensating strategies (such as reading pens and scribes) don't teach her to read and write.

• But they mean that she does less reading and writing then she would otherwise (and they send her the message that learning to read and write isn't important.)
• Therefore they actually stop her from learning to read and write.
• Therefore I think they're a really bad idea.
• If she's not going to learn to read and write, I see no point at all in sending her to school.'

Efforts at reading, writing and maths under her own steam have so far yielded exactly what for this child? She remains two years behind and has made very little progress this year according to IndigoBell.

Why is it necessary for her to understand that reading and writing are important? If she grasps that will she suddenly start reading and writing? Do you think this is a matter of will on her part?

And where have I said that she will not learn (or should not learn) to read and write? What I have asked is why technological aids to comprehension and using the material she is being exposed to are being eschewed while she is left trying to complete maths tests that fry her brain, trying to express herself in the written word so badly that even the spellcheck finds it impossible to figure out what she was aiming at. Her difficulties in learning to read and write are clearly enormous. What I am suggesting is that making her tackle the material without the help of technology is counter productive, and that there is a tunnel vision problem here on the part of IndigoBell.

I haven't seen one convincing reason not to use the technology that the EP suggested. Nor have I seen any indication that IndigoBell understands the function or purpose of that technology or where it might fit into her DD's learning process.

I haven't seen one convincing reason not to use the technology that the EP suggested.

Indigo said I fail to see how a reading pen (which of course school can't afford) or dictation software (ditto) helps with these goals.

The school can't afford it. What do you suggest then in this instance, Mathanxiety?

Purchase them herself or investigate whether the school is obliged to provide appropriate learning support items to students with SNs? Or if there is a charity that could help with the money to purchase the items?

The software is £58.89. The reading pen is £119 used, £150 new, and up to £197 refurbished.

Not able to afford doesn't equal knowing how they could benefit the DD, and lack of affordability hasn't been mentioned more than once by Indigo. She has focused on dismissing the technology outright:
'As you quite rightly pointed out you can't access the curriculum if you can't read and write - therefore if I fail to teach her to read, I will stop sending her to school.' Here is technology that could help her significantly to access the curriculum. Indigo turns her nose up at it because it will not teach her DD to read and write, which is a case of missing the point entirely.

What about the computer to run the software?
and why purchase something that is actually an obstacle to learning these skills when she can spend the money helping to gain them?
I can't think of one person who is unable to read or write adequately who would agree with you

As an adult life is absolute shit if you can't read and write.

Very, very few jobs are open to you
You can't fill in the form to claim child benefit
You can't fill in a job application
You can't find out when the bus is coming
You can't fill in a paying in slip at the bank
You can't work out the special offers at the supermarket
You can't read a map
Etc, etc, etc

It is also very embarrassing

Life is an awful lot harder than it should be.

I know I can teach her to read and write. Like I said, she has made enormous progress in reading this year. She is a level 2 now, and really on the cusp of being able to read properly.

End of Y2 she was 2 years behind - which meant in 3 years at school she had made 1 years progress. For her to still only be 2 yeas behind means that in 2 years she has made 2 years progress. Which is absolutely amazing.

I have every reason to believe if I keep doing what I'm doing in the next 2 years she'll make 4 or more years progress. Certainly her older brother has. Certainly she's bright enough to catch up quickly once she can read and write.

She fully accesses the curriculum in Y4 - because the teacher plans the lesson taking into account that several children can't read or write.

If I fail and she doesn't make 4 years progress in the next 2 years, then I'll have to decide whether to send her to secondary school, and make use of technology if necessary, or home educate her, or send her to a specialist dyslexia school, or send her to Summerhill.

But at the moment, it is far too early to consider using technology to help.

In general, you should not do something for a child that they can do for themselves. Which is why she shouldn't have a scribe.

Would you use a reading pen and dictation softtware with a 4 year old?

Learning to read and write will help her far more than a string of GCSEs.

I would never employ somebody who needed extra time to get the job done or who couldn't read or write. So I don't see how getting those considerations in exams help her.

At this age her top priority has to be to learn to read and write. The older she gets the harder it will be to learn.

I'm working very closely with school. I Let them try an enormous amount of interventions last year. This year school has decided to follow my suggestions (to a point). They don't have to. They have decided to.

In fact they like some of my ideas so much that they are using them with all the Y5s who can't read. It really is not a case of me being obstructive to school. It really, really is a case of me and her teacher and the SENCO working together. And of them listening to me as much as I listen to them.

Her teacher has never taught anyone to read before. Very few KS2 teachers have. The SENCO has taught lots of kids to read before. But she doesn't actually get to teach DD. all she gets to do is tell a TA what to do with DD.

I have almost never disagreed with the SENCO and she has almost never disagreed with me. She doesn't want DD to use a reading pen. She never suggested it. The EP did. The EP who hardly knows her, and doesn't know the school.

The SENCO wanted DD to try typing - but she hadn't seen DD type, and of course I had. So the teacher tried it a couple of times and then he realised why I thought it was a bad idea.

MathAnxiety, you have the distinction of being the first person ever who has tried to convince me that reading and writing is not important.

Oh, I forgot.

Not only are they using some of my ideas with all the Y5s who can't read.

The SENCO is also trying to persuade the HT to let me come in and teach a number of Y3s to read.

School are very impressed with the cognitive leaps DD has made this last year, and are hoping other children can do as well as her.

next year the SENCO plans to try out more of my ideas.

There are alternatives to either trusting school, or home educating. you can actually work with school and hope that not only your DC will benefit - but so will many others.

"We had a new pupil join KS2 (Y4) after Easter unable to read write or add 1 to a number ... how on earth does that happen to a child?"

Mrz, I had a child like this arrive in my class after Christmas - again with no SEN according to transfer documents. We DO know how it happened to the child ... it's not pretty, and relates entirely to the child's home life. It's Maslov (sp, sorry, can't be bothered to google) and his heirarchy - if the absolutely basic human needs of a child are not met, how can they learn?

Here's what DD wrote for homework:

Today was cool. It was tomnday towow and we all dret up as rom. My fivit ativee was and atiish big. We fan lot's of pat and a scligtn!

mrz, feenie - do you think I should believe her teacher when he tells me she's a L2? :(

(for bonus marks, can you work out what she wrote )

Indigo:

Hang in there! Puberty does seem to make a difference for many dyslexics (whereas most 'normals' go off the rails - miracles of suddenly 'getting it' can occur for many dyslexic pupils').

DH couldn't read at all until age 13. He's severely dyslexic but is a University lecturer now - mainly because a photographic memory and a flair for pattern recognition in his line of work is a huge asset.

erm "we all dressed up as Romans. My favourite activity was .... We found lots of ... and skeletons!"

No I don't think you should accept that she is a level 2

It was - - and we all dressed up as romans. My favourite activity was an - --. We found lots of ---- and a shield!

Hard to assess on the little given here - struggling to believe level 2 since I would need your dd to help me read it! I may be a bit rusty on level 2 though - I bet mrz can do better.

Cross posts, mrz - and of course it's skeleton, it's obvious now!

My favourite activity was an archaeological dig. We found lots of pots and a skeleton?

Mrz - as usual you got it :)

Today was cool. It was Roman day today and we all dressed up as Romans. My favourite activity was an archeological dig. We found lots of pots and a skeleton.

They told me she was a 2c last Jan.

But then of course she does much better work in literacy than she does for homework (but her spelling wouldn't be any better)

Is there anyway you could give her a level 2 with spelling like that? If she was a 2 in the other AF?

Again, it's hard to say on so little. I suspect not on what is there though - sorry, Indigo.

mrz - your decoding skills are amazing :).

(2nd place to feenie)

Her teacher also assures me he can read what she writes.

Of course it's much easier to read if you know she's just has a Roman day and dug up a skeleton :)

She went on an archaeological dig and found peat and skeletons?

Indigo's posted on this site loads. She has done lots for her child, and has not been unrealistic in her expectations or unwilling to work with anyone who can explain why they are helping. It's hugely unfair of anyone to criticise her. would you accept being told your child couldn't read or write, and had had their assessment in these levels initially inflated by what seems illegal methods (readers)? Of course not. And I can see Indigo's objections to the teacher being happy with this.

But, the school could say that intervention has helped: in KS1 her daughter made less than expected progress, in KS2 she is now making expected progress. This suggests teaching is now better matched. It would be helpful to know what else Indigo wants changed-more emphasis on the basics? Within or outwith other strands of the curriculum? I would like to know what she wanted and why the school won't do it before I can think about how much blame I'd place on my expectations as a teacher were I teaching her dd.