Low Aspirations

[IndigoBell]

Bloody hell I'm cross.

Why do teachers have such low aspirations?

How dare DDs teacher be happy with her attainment. Happy - as in rushed out of school to tell me how well she'd done in her latest test.

On track to almost get a C at GCSEs - and he's happy :(

I hate school. Every bit of it.

There is no expectation that children will do well - only that they'll make a set amount of progress each year.

Children are always told they're brilliant and wonderful - they're never told they're not doing well and they're actually going to have to work hard if they want to achieve something.

No expectations that a child will do well :(

The culture here sucks.

School thinks it's better to have a failing happy child - then a child who works hard :(

But because they make school so fun and engaging she refuses to let me take her out and teach her at home :(

But, narmada, we are not talking academic greatness here. We're talking recommended levels of achievment at primary and decent GCSEs. Everyone should be able to achieve that, at least in theory.

Do all stupid people have some kind of tattoo then that marks them our amongst their peers?

Look I think a child who has serious reading and writing difficulties, given that the curriculum is mostly accessed through reading and writing will probably only manage to scrape Cs at GCSE - that's not low aspirations, that realistic isn't it?

If you home/flexi schooled her what would YOU be able to do to make sure she learns (and retains) her reading and writing? You say her teachers and EP have tried everything - can you find alternative methods that haven't been tried?

And again being realistic, lack of reading and writing IS going to affect her ability to access the NC, so suggesting a scribe/reader isn't a stupid idea, it;s quite sensible really and if she is as clever as you think means that at least she'll still be learning, rather than not doing any history/geography/scienc etc etc etc until she has mastered reading and writing.

Stupid people don't have a tattoo - they have a lack of cognitive ability

I'm not really sure what bit you don't understand

I will either teach her to read and write or stop sending her to school.

There is obviously loads of things I can do in 3 hours a day 1:1 that school can't do

As you quite rightly pointed out you can't access the curriculum if you can't read and write - therefore if I fail to teach her to read, I will stop sending her to school.

At KS2 you don't need to be able to read and write to access the curriculum. Teachers still differentiate properly to take account of it. KS3 is different because, by and large, they stream. Which will be a disaster for DD.

The point I was making was that you often can't judge cognitive ability even if you know the children well socially.

Given that at school accessing the curriculum is pretty vital again the point I was making was that EP's suggestions seemed to be a good way of doing this but you appeared to dismiss this.

Finally of course 1:1 for 3 hours a day is going be be more productive than in a class of 30, but again the point I'm making is that being in a class of 30, having intervention strategies etc IS enough for most children, so you really need to get to grips with why hasn't it worked with your child. Then try and find ways around it.

titchy - you really need to get to grips with why hasn't it worked with your child. Then try and find ways around it.

That is exactly what I'm doing.

being in a class of 30, having intervention strategies etc IS enough for most children - No, it's not enough for about 20% of children.

80% is most children! I wish you all the best though.

Indigo - I was actually agreeing with you.

Although I think hothousing children has it's disadvantages but I see so many people from outside europe doing very well and they seem happy.

To me my ds needs to be successful as we're old parents and won't be around to subsidise him. I also want him to be happy and I strongly believe the more options he has the better for him.

I don't see that being offered in our education system if it's not offering children to fulfill the best of their potential. And it's not is it - that's why there is such a vibrant private sytem and why so many brits are sending their children to asia to be educated.

Narmada - why have you lifted my middle name!

:)

"If a child can't learn they're given one of a variety of labels (dyslexia, dyscalculia, SpLD, Moderate learning difficulties, etc, etc) - and she's got a label. But the label is nothing more than a label. It doesn't actually help her learn. Nor does it help school in any way. It's just a category on the SEN register she's filed under.
"

I agree.

Teachers still differentiate properly to take account of it.

Thats funny.
Two pages ago you were ridiculing scribed group work.

because not everyone agrees that is appropriate differentiation

Sunscorch - I don't know what happens at school or not. I don't know how often she is scribed for or if she learns anything.

She complained a lot about the TA scribing for her. And after I asked 3 times that has now stopped. Certainly a TA scribing for her was not helping her learn and it was making her feel like everyone thought she was thick.

The only purpose of the TA scribing for her was so that her work could be marked.

Last year she learnt nothing. Her school report pretty much said that. In particular the teacher commented on how she'd learnt nothing in history and IT.

(In fact it said she couldn't use a computer at all - yet I had to ask 3 times before they stopped asking DD to type her work instead of writing it. (her spelling is so bad that a spell checker can't guess what she's typed))

The reason she didnt learn anything in history wasn't because she couldn't read or write. It was because she couldnt learn new vocabulary.

This year she's learnt heaps. She's able to tell me about the Romans and the Tudors and other things. Again you don't need to read or write to learn those things.

She's also made huge progress in reading - but because her grades were inflated last year it looks like she's made no progress this year.

She's made good progress in maths - but because she can't concentrate for 45 minutes she couldn't demonstrate that in test conditions.

She's made slight progress in writing. I haven't been given her level for that yet, but I'd be very surprised if she's made a whole sublevel.

Anyway, having someone scribe for you doesn't teach you anything. All it does is allow the teacher to assess your knowledge.

But having other kids write while she didnt means they get more practice at writing than she did. And he gap continued to writing.

There is obviously a lot of history to this problem, and this thread isn't really explaining it - because I started it because I was upset about one specific comment her teacher made.

That issue has now been resolved.

I don't think she does nearly enough writing at school. I don't think she writes every day. But I don't know. It's very hard to tell anything about what happens between 9 and 3.

My point is just because it can't be read does not mean she should stop writing. Not when she's happy to write.

And my other point is that it's not fair she gets less opportunity to write than other kids do.

haven't read thread, sorry but interesting article in this months ATL newletter -presenter Cerrie Burnell, who is dyslexic, talking about primary school - she saw her experience as positive because 'it meant that education was about life skills and imagination, rather than academia'.

Wow Indigo - that is scary. That was the entire point of my first post - aka - is this the state our education system? So worrying.

What are you going to do for your girl?

GiveItAGo - I don't think you can draw any conclusions about the UK education system from my DDs experience. She is not at all typical.

You can draw conclusions about the culture behind the UK education system and about the SEN provision. As you can read on this thread lots of people feel its perfectly fine for a child to not learn to read or write. As long as they're happy

I'm doing loads and loads of really interesting things to help my DD. we've had numerous threads on them so I won't bore everyone with the details again. But suffice it to say her lack of progress is not due to lack of trying by me, her or school.

For those concerned about low aspirations and coming up to secondary school decisions, the new info on tthe DfE website is fascinating.

You can compare a number of schools against one another for how many low, middle and high achievers gain the holy grail of 5 a-cs incl maths and english (where low means coming in at or below level 3, middle level 4 and high level 5). By which I mean you can roughly work out if a school puts a lot of effort into supporting weaker students, does or doesn't ignore 'average' kids (common mn complaint) and does or doesn't allow stronger students to coast (another common mn complaint!)

Just thought some might find it of more interest than the pure results usually published.

Indigo, I hear you.
You may remember from previous threads that my dd has also struggled at school - started reception below average and still is. Her present school is much better for her than her previous, and I believe they're doing what they can for her, within the 'system'. She too left Y2 at L1, and has made the expected levels of progress since then - but of course, that means she's still behind. School will never say this though - they are happy she's making progress, and gloss over the fact that you can't always read her writing, although they do now acknowledge her spelling is a problem. Dh is teaching her some maths, and she goes to a tutor on a Saturday morning. We're not being pushy, just trying to help her catch up. Her reading isn't far below the expected level for her age now, so there is hope :)

We had a new pupil join KS2 (Y4) after Easter unable to read write or add 1 to a number ... how on earth does that happen to a child

Sorry if I have missed something, but what exactly is your objection to the dictation software and the reading pen?

I am asking because you have seen your DD remain at the point of being two years behind for a few years now. You have also made little or no progress with her yourself during the summer. You have stated that she forgets how to read over the course of summer and that her spelling is so bad that no-one can read what she manages to write. Also that she can't perform in maths exams.

If she is bright enough to master the content of the curriculum but the mechanics of it (reading, writing intelligibly, finishing maths tests) are presenting such a seemingly insurmountable difficulty to her, why not make the mechanics easier?

It seems to me that you are doing the same thing every time yet expecting different results every time here, expecting the teachers to come up with solutions/make bricks without straw, and it strikes me as misguided.

Some other points:
(1)
'The reason she didnt learn anything in history [last year] wasn't because she couldn't read or write. It was because she couldnt learn new vocabulary.
This year she's learnt heaps. She's able to tell me about the Romans and the Tudors and other things. Again you don't need to read or write to learn those things. '

This makes no sense and seems contradictory.

(2)
'My point is just because it can't be read does not mean she should stop writing. Not when she's happy to write.'
Initially you were hacked off because she was happy but not achieving. Now you are telling us that even though it is getting her absolutely nowhere she is happy at it, so she should be allowed to continue.
Earlier you said a big obstacle to her being home schooled was the fact that she insists she is happy where she is.

(3)
'I don't know what happens at school or not. I don't know how often she is scribed for or if she learns anything.
She complained a lot about the TA scribing for her. And after I asked 3 times that has now stopped. Certainly a TA scribing for her was not helping her learn and it was making her feel like everyone thought she was thick'.

Again, you have contradicted yourself flat out. Either you know the scribe is making a difference or you do not. You can't have it both ways.
Again, the determining factor in what the school does to help your DD seems to be her reports to you that she is not happy, feels she looks thick, etc.

Why don't you let the school do what they feel they need to do in order to help her to make progress? (scribe, maybe the software and reading pen)

Why don't you tell her to suck it up if having assistance makes her think the others think she is thick, and the bottom line is that she learns?

Does she have you wrapped around her finger here?

gosh mrz - had they missed lots of school before for some reason?

no their past attendance record is OK and they don't have SEN according to the transfer docs

MathAnxiety - you missed the fact that I still expect DD to learn to read and write, and I fail to see how a reading pen (which of course school can't afford) or dictation software (ditto) helps with these goals.

DD is nowhere near the worst in the class. Therefore no lesson relies on a child being able to read. So she doesn't need a reading pen.

I also fail to see how a scribe teaches her anything. What does she learn from dictating something, when she can write it herself?

I am certainly not doing the same thing with her year on year. Neither is school.

Last year she was unable to learn new words. All of history contains new words for her (Roman, Toga, Tudors, Execution, War of the Roses, Henry VIII, etc, etc, etc) - so she could not tell you what she learnt because she couldn't remember the words. Therefore she appeared to have learnt nothing.

This is nothing to do with her inability to read and write, it's a separate problem.

One of the many things we did this year cured this problem, so she now can remember words, and can tell you what she learnt in history.

Why don't you let the school do what they feel they need to do in order to help her to make progress? - now, that is really stupid advice. School don't know how to teach her! If they did know, she would already be reading and writing.

What do you think they want to do (to teach her to read and write) which they aren't doing?

She is nowhere near the worst in the class, and there are loads of kids further up the school who also can't read and write. So there is no reason to believe school can teach her. None at all.

Every single year, every single teacher has told me 'don't worry, I can teach her'. Every single one. Once again we get to the end of the year and she hasn't learnt to read and write. What happens? Nothing.

Approx 20% of kids leave this school unable to read and write well (the national average). And you think trusting school is a sensible decision?

This is nothing to do with her inability to read and write, it's a separate problem.

It seems to me that an inability to spell, and an inability to remember vocabulary are very likely to be linked.

To be honest, I find your whole attitude deeply confusing, as Math has pointed out extensively.