As we are in admissions season again...some top tips for first timers

[BetsyBoop]

On this thread a while ago, I posted some top tips on the admissions system, which people found useful, so here they are again...

1. Visit every school local to you & make your own mind up - don't go on reputation/gossip/Ofsted reports/league tables
2. Find out how likely it is you stand a chance of a place by looking at the last few years admissions (eg what category & distance)
3. Put the schools in your genuine order or preference (schools are not allowed to operate a "first preference first" system, despite what people tell you)
4. Use all your preferences - but be realistic about your chances of getting a place - don't waste a preference on a hell-will-freeze-over-first option.
5. Always include one "safe" option (even if it is as last preference) which you are okay with & are pretty much guaranteed to get into (ie "catchment" school) . (Or you run the risk of getting a random "worse" school miles away if you don't get any of your preferences)
6. You will not be able to bully the LA/school/appeals panel into giving you the school you want by only putting that school on the application form & refusing places at other schools.
7. Read the admission code - you need to know the "rules" as if the rules are broken it gives you a valid reason to appeal.
8. Submit any exceptional social/medical circumstances evidence with your initial application, whether or not you are fairly confident you will get a place anyway - much easier than trying to win an appeal based on this later (which will typically fail if it is an infant class size* appeal)

• "infant class size" =YR/Y1/Y2 classes can have a maximum of 30 pupils per teacher

bebeballroom,
"just checks with the vicar" is absolutely not what should be happening. If they have a faith requirement then there should be a proper way of defining that. Normally it says something like attending church once a month and getting the supplementary form signed by the vicar. As someone who chairs admission panels this the kind of school that I hate, running admissions by the seat of their pants and not keeping to the agreed process, it is just a recipe for tears and heartache for families.
I would not necessarily just accept what the secretary says. The definitive admission criteria is what it says in the LA admission book and that is what any admission authority should be using and what any admission appeal panel will use. If this school does require a supplementary form and you don't submit it, you will be in the distance category and therefore at risk of not getting a place. I will also guarantee you that the secretary will not remember saying its OK no supplementary form unless you have have it writing.

Oh thank goodness for this thread - we just did our first visit to a school today and I am totally in a panic about the whole thing!

Our first choice of school will be our local village which we are 0.3 miles from and in the catchment area - I checked on the LA website and it is definitely our 'catchment school'. However, it was oversubscribed by 5 last year and there are always a few kids in the village who don't get in. Also we have twins so are wanting two places, so we have to consider the possibility of not getting in.

But I just don't know what to put down as second and third places - the school we visited today, in our neighbouring village is also oversubscribed every year so the chances of getting into it are even lower than our own village school as we will be further down the priority list. Would we be wasting one of our choices by putting it down as 2nd or 3rd preference?

Also the next two nearest schools are both CofE schools - is it worth putting these down at all if we don't go to church? Or should we start attending just in case?

The next two nearest schools after that were also oversubscribed last year so we have the same problem with them as with the above one. I am planning to visit these two next week if possible, but again I don't know whether it is worth putting them down at all.

Also of course the greatest fear is that we get one twin into a local school and the other place 10 miles away. What are you supposed to do in these circumstances? How do you manage picking up and dropping off? Has anyone had this problem with twins?

prh For the oversubscribed school, the LEA told me that of the 60 that got in they were all from those that put it as first choice so 18 of the 78 didn't get in. 50odd put it as 2nd choice and 20odd as third. I'll still put it as my first but doubt we'll get in at all, and will be happy with the 2nd choice (RC school)

headfairy: The following year then the catchment areas might be changed. For the current year, then the school would either have to put in temporary classrooms (which the council hates to do, as they cost a lot of money) or not take any placing requests.

Ds' school is now absolutely at capacity (over the years that ds has been there, we have progressively lost the "noisy/Quiet room", the computer room and finally :( the library) and this year the only placing requests they were able to take were siblings and special needs (it's all on one level, whereas the other local non-denom primary school is a Victorian one with lots of stairs) - and even that meant a major re-shuffle of the other classes, as only one P7 class was leaving but one and half P1 classes came in.

Next year should be OK as there is currently a P7 class and a P7/6 class, so when they move on to secondary, that leaves "space" for one and a half classes again.

There are plans to build a new school - but obviously that is a couple of years away.

I'm sorry can someone explain really simply for me about the 1st,2nd,3rd preference.

Does it not matter at all in which order you put these down , is just dependent meeting criteria/catchment?

Prettybird Gosh, that doesn't sound ideal either. I suppose for parents they at least know what school their children will go to, but does squeezing more and more children in not compromise on their ability to teach? I'm assuming they keep to the 30 children per class maximum and just add more classes?

The school I went to visit on Tuesday has a free flow policy to their reception and year 1 children. All reception children (120 last year) have a "home" room, and nominally this is their class, but they are actually split in to two groups of 60. In the middle is a hall for indoor activities, and four home rooms are arranged around it (2 on each side). Outside each home room is a large out door play area, with sand pits, toys, scooters cars, etc etc. Children are allowed to roam in or out on "their" side of the hall. One of the home rooms on each side has lots of craft type stuff in, the other one will have books, writing things. All home rooms have interactive white boards and four computers. The children have no formal lessons, but will do 15 mins of literacy and 15 mins of numeracy a day.

There is the same arrangement for year 1. They have a slightly more structured day, with about 20-30 mins literacy and the same of numeracy each day. They are also allowed to free roam in or out.

In year 2 it becomes a bit more traditional, but the HT said that if children in Y2 still want to play rather than do more structured lessons they are happy to let them. They want to encourage them to learn through playing. This school gets absolutely outstanding results and has 1s for every catergory in it's Ofsted report.

It's my second choice, I'm starting to think I should put it first :o

Panthan I was told to put the schools down in order I would prefer, because say you don't get your first choice and are offered a place in your second choice, you will go on the waiting list for a place at your first choice school, because it was your first preference. That's the only time when the order in which you put the schools matters.

Wow, I thought I was ahead of the game by having in my mind 'ooh, must start thinking about schools soon'.

Seems I'm a slacker.
huge thanks to OP and subsequent wise ones who've offered advise.
I'll sit down with a big glass of wine tonight to go over the tips and plan my strategy.
We're moving from one LEA to another, hopefully mid Nov. So I presume we'll be welcome at school open days/evenings in the new area?
thanks again

headfairy thankyou, it's just so confusing to my small brain.

Can someone explain how being on a wait list works? Can i accept a place at my second / third etc choice school and wait list myself at my first choice and then switch schools if I get a place at first choice via wait list?

Me too panthan but I had a loooong chat with a lovely lady at the LEAs admissions help line who explained everything in words of one syllable for me :o

whattodoo I wouldn't wait until you've moved to find out about open days.. schools in our area are running maybe two or three open days only, some are already booked up, and the latest one I've got is mid November. I think schools like to get them out of the way before the build up to Christmas. Are you very far from the area you're moving to? Can you go to some before you move?

My advice (from another newbie so probably not really in a position to give advice) is if you can apply online then do, because our authority let us apply from 1st September, but we can make changes to our application until 15th Jan, which means I feel a bit calmer because I have actually put an application in. However if I go on a school visit and feel particularly strongly about one school, I can always change things around a bit. Having seen our second choice school last week I'm very tempted to put them first now ...

Quick question- DD1 goes to a pre-school attached to the school, does this hold any weight or not? Do they even ask?

stokey that's how I understand it.. I have a friend who put her ds down for a school that her dd was already going to nursery at. she didn't get a place, but he got a place at another school which she took, but she's still on the waiting list for a place at her first choice. I think she's going to take herself off the list now as they're very happy with their second choice school now, their ds is very settled there now.

Piggley I would check, but in my experience they don't. Admissions to reception are seperate to nursery. Having a dc in the nursery won't make any difference to your application for reception.

I know nothing, I don't even know why I'm posting all these replies :o

piggley it depends on the admissions criteria of that individual school.

Where we live, having a place at nursery is not one of the admissions criteria in any of our local schools.

Seeing my first school tomorrow any advice on what to look for?

Can I just say to all newbys that don't always go just on the Ofsted report.

My 2 DDs (5 and 3) go to their local catchment school that has a high child poverty level.
Its also just failed its Ofsted.

Sounds awful doesn't it, and most people living outside the deprived area (where I live) won't even consider it as an option.

But, and its a BIG but, its actually a really good school. My children have been very happy their every day they have gone. The children are all really polite; no money doesn't necessarily mean rough children. The teaching got praised by ofsted, it was just the management that let it down. 80%+ at their last SATs.

All I'm saying is don't always judge a book by its cover. Look a bit deeper because things might not always be as they first appear to an outsider.

Oh, and deprived areas get lots of money so all kids benefit.

Admission The criteria is at least 2 years regular attendance by one or both parents for 2 years prior to application. This is what the secretary is checking with the vicar & getting her to sign. (I have been going to the church since before DD was born, and regularly since she was about 15months old.) She said this is filled in on the normal application form. It's a small school & she's been there yonks, so I'd like to think she knows what she is talking about!

Back again. To pick up a few of the issues

Is it worth attending church 'just in case'? Again, the answer is check the admissions criteria. Many will stipulate that to be eligible for a church place, you need to attend for 2 years or longer at the date of application, so going now with the hope of bagging a place for next September won't work. Besides, if the school has 'open places' (see my earlier post about this) then you don't need to pretend.

Attending the nursery As I said before, this very rarely gives you priority for a place in reception, because the admissions code say that where priority is given to children from the nursery it must be done in such a way that it doesn't disadvantage other children, and it's very hard to square that circle.

Waiting lists Some LEAs limit the number of waiting lists you can join, but the view amongst the admissions gurus here is that that's unlawful. By accepting a school place you don't surrender your right to be on other waiting lists.

Ranking your preferences Schools don't know where you have ranked them in your application. The reason it's important to be clear which is your 1st, 2nd, 3rd (and 4th and 5th if you've got them) preference is because each school considers the applications it's received against its admission priorities and notifies the LEA of which children it can offer places to. If any child stands to get more than one offer, the LEA will only pass on the offer from the highest-ranked school.

Bebeballroom - that may well be how the school does it, but it's a departure from the usual system of the vicar/priest signing a supplementary form which states how often the family attends church, their involvement in parish life etc. It would be highly unusual for there to be space for that on the standard application form issued by the LEA. The point here is that the school needs to have clear information on which to base admission decisions and to support its position if it ever comes to appeal. If they really do have all this information then all well and good but if (on the other hand) it's all done in a subjective way and on the basis of a phone call without supporting documentation, then the school will be in a weak position if any appeal panel is looking at why a child was not admitted.

I think the schools just get a list of everyone who has applied, with no information about preference at all. They allocate places from that list based on the admissions criteria. They probably have a backup list of children who didn't quite make the final 30, 60, 90 or whatever the number.

Once that has been done, the class lists from each school go back to the LEA. If a child has been successful in their application to more than one school, then the LEA will confirm the place at their highest preference school, and decline the other places. Most schools will then have spare places to fill, so they will go to their backup list of other children who applied but didn't get in due to living too far away or whatever. These will then also be fed back to the LEA and cross-referenced with the applicant's preferences and the process will be repeated until all applicants have a place, and only then are letters sent out to parents.

I don't actually know if this is exactly how it's done but it seems like the most likely way, from what I know about the process. Think of it like applying to three jobs at the same time. You have your (private) preferences about which one you would accept over another one, but the interviewers don't know this preference, so they can't be prejudiced about it. If you got all three jobs, you would accept one and decline the other two. It's just that the LEA does this part for parents to ensure impartiality, so instead of the preference information being in your head, it's in their computer system.

headfairy Maximum class size in Scotland for P1s (= Reception) is now set at 25 - although it goes back up to 30 for the later years.

Not sure what now happens for composite classes - used to be that maximum class size was 30 but reduced to 25 for a composite class.

Ds' school is a popular one - the last couple of years it had two P1 classes - split about half and half catchment and placing requests. This year was the first year that it had to turn down placing requests

Every square inch of the school is used - some of them 3 times over. Some classes have to have one of thier gym classes outside, as there aren't enough hours availabl for the gym hall - which doubles as the dinner hall and the assembly hall.

I spent most of the afternoon trying to find out how to get a supplementary form & what the procedure is & could find no info on it other than it mentioned that it might be needed on the LEA webiste. Ask the school & they say not needed. I'm feeling more confused now. Guess all I can do is wait til the application forms arrive & go from there. Just want to be prepared!!

Ok, panic time here then! Main question is: the house will be going on the market in the next few weeks and we have no definite idea of where we're moving too. The plan is to move closer to both our jobs, but we might ending up staying near where we are now. Given that we have no idea how long the whole moving process will take (we may take a year to sell the place for example) - what's the best course of action? Just apply for where we are now and hope that we can get DD a place nearer where we move once/if that happens? Is it worth contacting the council local to the house we make an offer on as soon as the buying process starts to find out what we need to do?

Has this thread made anyone else feel like a Bad Mummy?

Yes I'm feeling like a bad mummy! Not sure why though!!

Have finally found this on the LEA website...

"All parents will be invited to state up to a maximum of four ranked preferences on a common application form, regardless of the status of the schools for which they wish to apply. The form will provide an opportunity for parents to give reasons for their preferences...
Individual school admission authorities (Voluntary Aided and Foundation) may use separate supplementary forms to collect additional information, but all applicants must complete a Common Application Form. The only additional information obtained by schools should be that referred to in the School Admissions Code, i.e. that which has a direct bearing on decisions about acceptable oversubscription criteria; for example, asking for a reference from a priest or other religious matter for a faith school. These supplementary forms should not simply repeat the information requested on the Common Application Form or ask questions prohibited by the Code and must be relevant to the school concerned."

Clear as mud eh?!