As we are in admissions season again...some top tips for first timers

[BetsyBoop]

On this thread a while ago, I posted some top tips on the admissions system, which people found useful, so here they are again...

1. Visit every school local to you & make your own mind up - don't go on reputation/gossip/Ofsted reports/league tables
2. Find out how likely it is you stand a chance of a place by looking at the last few years admissions (eg what category & distance)
3. Put the schools in your genuine order or preference (schools are not allowed to operate a "first preference first" system, despite what people tell you)
4. Use all your preferences - but be realistic about your chances of getting a place - don't waste a preference on a hell-will-freeze-over-first option.
5. Always include one "safe" option (even if it is as last preference) which you are okay with & are pretty much guaranteed to get into (ie "catchment" school) . (Or you run the risk of getting a random "worse" school miles away if you don't get any of your preferences)
6. You will not be able to bully the LA/school/appeals panel into giving you the school you want by only putting that school on the application form & refusing places at other schools.
7. Read the admission code - you need to know the "rules" as if the rules are broken it gives you a valid reason to appeal.
8. Submit any exceptional social/medical circumstances evidence with your initial application, whether or not you are fairly confident you will get a place anyway - much easier than trying to win an appeal based on this later (which will typically fail if it is an infant class size* appeal)

• "infant class size" =YR/Y1/Y2 classes can have a maximum of 30 pupils per teacher

Many many thanks op, as a first timer to the russian roulette that is primary school admissions I've found this really useful.

Just wondering if you could clarify for me what you mean by social factors to support your application? The situation my family is currently in has me working 17 miles in the opposite direction from our school catchment area. If ds was to attend our catchment school he would have to be there at exactly the same time as i need to be in the office. I have already broached the idea of flexible working round school hours with work and because two other parents already have been granted this, it is very very unlikely i would get it also as it would leave the office short of staff at the start and end of each day. There is also no wrap around care in our catchment area (tiny village in the middle of nowhere) that i could use, where as where i currently work i have an excellant cm who would do the pick up for me. Dp is an engineer working 12 hour shifts on a four on four off pattern so couldn't help everyday with pickups and both sets of gp's live over 20 miles away from us so couldn't provide the help we'd need. Also feel that daily pickups is a big ask for gp's due to the impact it would have on their lives.

I would love for ds to attend the infant school attached to the nursery he currently attends for all the reasons above plus because of the distance to my office i would be able to drop things and pick him up really quickly should he be ill ect. Also ds has a strong friendship group at this school (children who attend the same cm and groups) and with dc2 due in december i would really like him to maintain this bit of normality in what will be a busy year for him. Going to the catchment school will also mean he'd have to say goodbye to the cm He's gone to since 9 months old and i'm worried it'll be too much at once for him.

Would this sort of thing count as social factors (not so much his friendship group and leaving his cm as i honestly believe he'll thrive wherever but the other bits

Gus - do you know if you're likely to have a problem geting your dc in to that school? If you look online at your council website and/or ring the admissions team you can find out if that school is usually filled with catchment area kids or has out of area spaces.

I suspect that what you've outlined wouldn't be hugely persuasive if the school is full. Your work commitments are vital to you of course but the council has to consider that admitting over numbers may have a serious detriment to the children in the school.

Gus - no, your work/childcare/existing friendship arrangements won't have any impact I'm afraid. Exceptional Social circumstances would generally be something like a child with social services involvement with a particular need for a specific school; they are generally very hard to get.

Gus - I answered your question before you asked it - see my first post here. Unless the school is very under-subscribed, you are very unlikely to get a place under the usual distance-based criteria and it would be unheard of (in my experience) for the LEA to accept these issues to do with your work as warranting a priority admission under the social/medical/exceptional heading. And, to be frank, the LEA (and any appeal panel) will be very sceptical about anyone arguing that it's really in a child's best interests to be in a school 17 miles from home.

What do the other parents in your village do about before and after-school care?

Thanks. I've just looked on my LEA website and there's quite a lot of info on there.

I'm applying for places for my twins and want them to be kept together (they really would be lost without each other!). Would the admissions staff take this in to consideration when allocating places?

Our first choice has 60 places available for 2012 and this year they had 6 'out of area siblings' who didn't get in. So this year all the kids in the category my two are in got their place.

I'm quite hopeful mine will get in as there seems to be less children in their year group then the one that's just started school.

For twins, you need to make an application for each child (and it is as well to make it very clear on the form that it should be linked to the other child's form).

Normally, twins would be admitted together, because when the applications are ranked according to distance to school (assuming that's the category in which the applications are being considered), they will (obviously) be at exactly the same distance. Where problems occasionally arise is when one twin gets the last place (30th, 60th, 90th as the case may be) and the other doesn't get a place.

I have heard of LEAs which will admit the second child as the 31st, 61st, 91st pupil which (strictly speaking) is unlawful as there are very limited circumstances in which the infant class size limit can be exceeded and (as the law stands now) keeping twins together isn't one of them. Once one twin is admitted to the school, the other child should move to the top of the waiting list as a sibling, but that probably isn't much consolation.

Northanlurker: We had a look round the prefered school last week and asked what the odds were as i'm looking to apply and chance my luck with an appeal should we be unsuccessful and we know they were over subscribed last year but have taken on a really small nursery class this year. It would all hinge on how many applictions they get from outside the nursery class.

patriciaholm: i had a feeling thats what it would mean but thanks for clarifying. I want to get my research on applications and appeal before i give birth because sleep depriviation and baby brian is a lethal combination in me.

panel member: I do see your point about the distance and what the lea would see as ds's best interests it is a long way from home and to be fair i don't know what the other parents in the area as due to work ect, we no longer have the connection with the area we did 5 years ago and don't know anyone round here. If we could afford to move we would. I've researched childcare options through the childcare advice service

Oops last post cut off there for some reason.
What the rest of that should have said was:

and know there are no cm's in the area and the nearest nursery is 12 miles in the wrong direction. We've also asked about afterschool club which they don't have. We're looking round next week and will try to find out what others do. We live really rurally (we get one bus once a week to the nearest town) and it's times like these which really show you the hazards of this.

will also go back and read your 1st post. Am typing this on a mobile and i'm missing things because it takes so long.

Thank you PanelMember. I shall make sure it's very clear that they are linked.

DrCrab - you mention a really good school for your DS but you haven't moved yet. Is this the school you are planning to send your DS to? Are you planning to move before or after the January application cutoff? If afterwards you could have lots of problems getting admitted to the new school and effectively missing the cutoff. Your LEA should have clear rules about late address changes so you need to read up on this.

My DS just started Reception but we were in a similar situation last year, we'd bought a house but hadn't moved yet while doing building work and had to really push to complete our move ahead (the week before!) the deadline. Even then I had to clearly explain my case to the LEA, as they wanted hard evidence such as utility bills [which we had luckily], solicitors letter proving we'd indeed bought the house, etc. To top it off they wanted a Child Benefit letter with our new address and CB won't modify this til after the actual move so had to make arrangements to send it later to fully close off the application. All this was because our school was oversubscribed so they are really strict, others may not be so much. We did get in after all that so was worth it.

I would add that all this was done electronically - the school application process was online and then all the correspondence was via email with scanned pdf documents so that really helped to get quick replies.

Thank you everyone. This is really useful.

As someone who failed to read the booklet properly ensure you know EXACTLY what the preference criteria are - I failed to tick one box and didn't get the school we wanted. (It was a CE school and even if you aren't religious, you HAD to tick the religious preference box to put your application higher up the list).

And if you are applying to a Catholic/church school, make sure you have submitted your supplementary documentation - baptism certificates, priest's reference etc.

Gus - is your most convenient school undersubscribed at the moment? If so, it's worth putting it down as your first preference. If it's oversubscribed you probably won't have a chance.

When my first dd (who is going into secondary school next year) was starting primary school, she had got a place at our nearest school, which I was over the moon at, then in March we were told that the landlord was selling our house and we had to move.

I found one a few miles away. She could still have gone to the school we had a place at, but there was another literally 2 minutes' walk away. This was in May. So, on the off-chance, I rang the near school and explained the situation, and asked if they had any vacancies.

Amazingly, they did, and I was able to simply switch her to the new school, and she has been very happy here.

You could try that - sort yourself out a place FIRST - then ring your preferred school and ask if they have any spaces. You might be surprised.

This time round I have one dd starting secondary and one dd starting primary in the same year!

Thanks everybody - some very useful information on this thread :)

This is all so useful thanks everyone! I am very nervous about the whole application process!

We have 2 schools within walking distance to our house. We are 0.1km closer to my 2nd choice of these (as the crow flies, which is, IIRC, how they calculate it). Our 1st choice is the CofE school that is linked to the church we attend which bumps us up the list, so to speak, on admissions criteria.

I am in two minds whether to state on the admissions form that I have MS. It does have an impact as we will need to be within walking distance of the school. If I have a relapse with the MS & can't drive we would have no other way to get DD to school. (DH doesn't drive) We live in a rural location & my 3rd & 4th choices are in neighbouring villages, and are not walking distance. Choices 1 & 2 are very very popular & I have heard that you are unlikely to get either of them if you place it as 2nd choice (should you also not get into the 1st choice).

It's all such a minefield!!

Thanks for this.

Have to make a choice for ds4: he's in the nursery at the local chool but he ahs suspected SN, i've already out two boys through the school with SN and after so many battles with a SENCO the LEA acknowledges is not up to scratch (school run by a committee, LA doesn;t get to say who is hired a nominated person does) I am having actual full on panic attacks every day at pick up. After 4 weeks she still hasn;t bohtered to contact us even though ds4 has been dx'd with speech delay and we know he probably ahs ASD.

But I don't know if we can go elsewhere; school is the catchment one and direct applications, we don't get sent a form or anything. There are two other schools in the area which we are willing tojuggle driving to but the LEA said we have to get their permission for an out of catchment application and theya re not likely AFAICS as local school is undersubscribed and other two over.

This was us last year - can only echo what everyoe says about knowing the criteria and abiding by them - I know people from preschool who had an awful time trying to get their kids into the nearest school having left it off the list in the hope of getting some wonder-school that they had no hope of getting into!

ONe thing I rememberr from last year is that there was a lot of confusion about how the preference thing works. One of the Mumsnet admissions expert-y people (Panelmember, phr47bridge etc) did a great explanation of how to structure preferences which I think helped a few people. People were planning to leave off the school they really wanted in case that would bump them down for the school they were most likely to get IYSWIM, which is not how it is meant to work. That is why everyone says put a safe bet as your third option.

The system works on preferences, and the schools are not meant to know where you have put them on the list. They will just tell the LA who they are able to offer places to and the LA will then manage the preferences according to the order you have put them in. I'm sorry that that isn't clearer, but am sure someone with more knowledge will be able to explain!

One final thing on preferences - you can't change the order of them after the form has gone in. We had just moved and I wanted to swap two of them round once I had had a chance to speak to more Mums but there was no way at all of doing it. Worked out fine in the end as there is a fair amount of jiggling around even up to the October half term, but just to warn you!

bebeballroom - Without looking in detail at the admission criteria used for these schools I have no idea whether your MS will make any difference. However, I would strongly advise you to put it on the form and supply a report from your GP or specialist setting out the problems a relapse will cause. If you don't get a place at either school it may weaken any appeal if you haven't included this information with your application.

DoNotPressTheRedButton - Can you tell us where you are? PM me if you don't want to post that information publicly. It would also be useful to know which school we are talking about. If you are in England there are a number of things you've said in your post that don't sound right.

As a BTDTGT mum who has spent far to much time hanging about on parenting forums I'd also say remember it ain't the end of the world not getting your 1st choice school either- if you think this is a big hurdle just wait till secondary transfer!

Most primaries are actually fine if your child is a nice child and well brought up at home, even a "bad" school wont "ruin" them and they'll still learn and achieve their potential. Schools even in special measures are exactly that- having a heck of a financial and teaching input to improve .

School only has your child for 30hrs a week remember!

Messaged you prh

This has probably already been said in one way or another, but I would emphasize that being near the catchment isn't the same as being in the catchment. If the school is oversubscribed and you're not in the catchment, be ready to not be offered a place and recognise that you don't have the same claim on a place as the people in the catchment, even if they only live a road away from you, or even further away from the school. I'm not say that's how it should be; I'm saying that how's it is. So be prepared to not be offered a place. But don't be discouraged from going on the waiting list.

As prh47bridge says, a school handing out places without parents even having to apply for them, and an LEA putting obstacles in the way of parents who want to apply for any school apart from the catchment one, is at odds with the admissions code. I'm curious to know more.

bebeballroom - If your LEA's admissions booklet shows that they will take parents' disabilities or medical needs into account then you should (as prh47bridge says) provide documentary evidence of why you need a school within a distance that you can safely walk.

A more general point I would make is (again) don't expect the LEA to magically know things that you haven't told them. The onus is on parents to provide all relevant information and, as has been said, appeal panels might look askance at new information that is submitted at the appeal stage and query why, if it is so crucial, parents hadn't mentioned it before. Even more to the point, if the school is already full and infant class size rules apply, the appeal panel has very few grounds on which it can lawfully instruct that the child should be admitted. It can do so to correct a mistake made by the LEA (such as, say, overlooking that the child has a sibling at the school) but it can't do so to correct a mistake made by the parent in, say, not providing information about social and medical needs or applying after the deadline.

This has been very useful reading for me, but I'm wondering if anyone could advise on my situation: We're currently in Sydney, but hoping to relocate to England next year. I'm british but moved away 10 yrs ago, before children. We have no obvious base to aim for, at the moment, most likely option will be London (can only move if DP gets a transfer, his office will be in ealing), any advice would be appreciated, I find it hard to plan when I can't picture where we'll be, but don't want to not apply and end up at the bottom, yet how can I apply if we don't have an address, are there special rules in these instances? phew, lots of questions

My daughter is 6 (in first year of school in Oz) and son will be 4 in Jan so will start in UK in Sept 2012. In Sydney, if you're in area, you get a place, so the whole thing is very simple, if they're oversubscribed they create new classes, my daughter goes to an excellent school, they have 6 kindy (reception) classes, 2 of which were created this year to accommodate the 'boom' in 2005 babies.

Thanks for this, really helpful, as I just started looking into it for my DD just this morning.

There are about three schools in my area we can apply for, I have a one-to-one appointment to look round one, the date for the open day for another and am awaiting the date for the other's open day so am getting somewhere.

Have looked at the Ofsted reports for the three schools and kind of have a preference in mind already (without physically seeing them, but am aware that upon seeing them, my opinion may change).

My first preference is written up as a Catholic school. Further up the thread someone said we'll need to provide supplementary evidence ie priest reccommendation to get into Catholic school but we are non-religious and DD not baptised. Would this mean we wouldn't get in? Should I not bother wasting my first preference on this school? They plan to only admit 20 children this year.

My second preference is the over subscribed CofE school, who plan to admit 60 children, equal ofsted with preference one, and my third preference is the one that I am nearest to but not overly keen on her going there, do I need a rethink on the order here?

prh47bridge & panelmember, as far as I can see there is nothing on the LEA website & the pdf booklet thingy that mentions parents with disabilities. They mention children with disabilities & transport & such for them, but nothing for parents. My biggest problem is that my disability isn't permanant, it comes and goes! I never know when I am going to be ill, where I am going to have a problem or how long it will last or how bad it will be! So there isn't really anyway to plan for it IYSWIM. I'm hoping that the fact we are members of the church will be enough to see us through. Although I'm currently wading through information on the council/school websites to find out what extra information I have to supply. If only I had remembered to ask the Head at the open morning! Might pop in to the office and ask them later when I pick DD up. Thanks for the advice, very much appreciated!