Private schools, wow what a difference! (Year 4)

[FedUpWithSchools]

Got very disillusioned with DS?s ?outstanding? primary. First alarm bells started to ring in year 3, when every single day he?ll bring a drawing or a robot made of cardboard or a car made of boxes, you get the picture while he hardly got any homework. I tried talking to his teacher about it, but she was always very reassuring and said he is doing fine. I am a foreigner, so was not so familiar with a UK education system and thought the teacher knows what she is doing. Then in year 4 I found out about sets. Apparently my son is in a middle set for everything. According to teacher, he got an ability to be in a top set in a different class, but because his class is overall ?exceptionally bright?, the top set is working at a level of year 5, or even sometimes year 6. My son complains that on days that they got math (and they don?t do math every day), bottom set gets to ?play? on PCs ? they do educational games, middle set gets work to do on their own, and the teacher sits with the top set (5 kids out of a class of 35) and teaches them. If my son or anybody else gets ?stuck? on their work, the teacher with just get very stressed and will tell him in a raised voice just to get on with his work or read a book or draw something if he is finished. Bottom set gets a ?special? teacher to work with them a few times a week during literacy and math lessons. Children never move between sets. Sometimes my son finishes his work quickly and asks to listen or join with the top set, but teacher always gets annoyed and sends him back to his table.

I had a parents meeting with the teacher a few weeks ago, and raised all my concerns. I am very worried about the amount of stuff he is learning at school, as the 11+ is looming and only the top 5 kids are getting sufficient tutoring to pass the exam. The teacher agreed with me, and hinted that it will benefit my son to get a tutor or even better a private school. So off we went to look for a private. And all I can say is wow! We visited 4 schools in total. Class sizes vary from 16 to 22; 2 schools were selective, another 2 are not. But all 4 of the schools had a grammar pass rate between 90% and 85%. My son?s school sends around 6 kids out of 70 each year, so 3 kids per class. In all private schools that we visited all kids are taught by the same teacher at the same level. They also sit on their own desks facing the teacher, not in groups. Children get books for each subject, so the parent knows exactly what is covered at school on each given day, and will be able to go over it at home if needed. There is also an hour of homework every day and in year 5 schools run ?summer schools? to coach for 11+ exams. Some schools also had longer days in year 5 to cover the material quicker and start preparing for 11+ earlier in the year.

To be honest, the difference of standards and attainment really shocked me. How do they manage to teach every single kid in a classroom to the same level when a state school claims its impossible? Why state school cant just teach all kids at the same level, with kids all sitting and listening to the teacher instead of sitting in groups around round tables, sometimes with their backs to the blackboard? I really don?t get it. We are moving our son next week to a new school, wish I knew about the differences earlier, feeling guilty now for denying him a proper education for so many years.

OP, nothing to do with state v private. I'm with Pagwatch on this (my dds are in a small - not officially outstanding - State primary and thriving, I went to private schools).

There are schools that fail pupils, there are schools that support pupils, there are schools that have the shiny good school guide sticker and are genuinely great in many areas and schools that don't have the official badge of approval and are also great in many areas: the ONLY way to know which is right for your DC is to go and visit, a lot. Hang out, talk to the children, talk to the staff, talk to the parents, get a feel for it - yes, look at statistics and Ofsteds too.

Be careful. If there's one thing worse than finding out a school has been letting your child down, its finding out a school has been letting your child down and charging you lots of money for it.

Who said anything about lower ability children ?

The children all play together at break don't they ? However, class time is for learning IMHO and I am starting to resent political correctness theories in action reducing the level of education my children receive.

Unfortunately, it is very common for 'outstanding' state schools in nice areas to use their resources to a)push the most able as far as they can go and b)try to raise the standard of the least able.

It is common but not universal for middling groups in such schools to be left to pretty much get on with things. It also sadly means that once a child is in the middle they stay there as the extra input given to the top set pushes them out of reach.

I say this as a teacher. It is not how I teach but I have seen it over and over again.

myredcardigan, as a teacher can l ask you what would you suggest is the best course of action, for me as a parent, of a YR1 DC who I fear is being grouped in the so called 'middling group' despite showing more KS1 higher and KS2 self motivated work at home

I really don't know and I'm probably going to get flamed for posting that but as I said, I have seen it too many times.

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting this is always the case and in many schools those children in the middle will be helped to reach their potential. However, if I was to pick out one 'type' of child that I believe the state sector (in many cases) fails, it would be the well-behaved average ability child.

All I can suggest is make sure that school knows you are interested and will be on their case about how well your child is doing and supplement as much as possible at home.

Y3 can sometimes be a fresh start as Y3 teachers often group according to the SATs scores so (and I'm going to get flamed for this too) get some Y2 practice papers and some KS1 comprehension type questions to help them with the format of the test. Trouble is, KS1 assessment is teachers assessment so unless a child is attaining that level throughout the teacher will (rightly) not award them that grade.

However, all that is only of any use if a child is actually avove average but has perhaps been a late developer and not got in on the top group thing early enough. Many children are in the middle groups because that's where they naturally should be. The only problem is that they are often left to coast or plod along whilst all the extra support and resources goes into those at the top and the bottom.

I have 3 kids. Two are very bright and my third is a very easy going, jolly, academically average child. I pay for school but if I used state school, I wouyld not send them to a high pressured, oversubscribed 'outstanding' state school especially one in an affluent or MC area. I have taught in 2 and the running/ethos was very SATs and results driven. Way too much focus on pushing the brightest to L5 and raising as many as possible who were struggling simply to improve overall scores.

myredcardigan
I hope nobody flames you for your comments as they are - according to DH who visits lots and lots of schools - spot on.
Every teacher knows their top five
Every teacher knows their bottom five
But the middle 20 - unless they excel at something (music, art, sport, dancing) - no real idea.
Especially when you get to secondary and the numbers are 20, 20, 240 per year group!

Sorry, that wasn't very helpful.
Just encourage reading and comprehensions as much as possible at home. Read lots of non-fiction books too. Usborne do an early reader set on famous people too which are good as do Ginn though theirs is more suitable for lower juniors. Play comprehension games at the end. You ask a question then child does. My DsS (Y2) loves this game and even the thinking of the question that they want to ask really makes them think.

Encourage their general knowledge. Make sure they have a world map available and atlases and dictionaries etc. Explore these together.

As for maths, you can have a look on the standards website at whet they need to be doing when and just adopt this at home into fun activities. Let them handle money. Get them a starter watch-the one with blue and red and the minutes past behind the numbers. Explore shape around them. Let them help you measure when baking. Just foster a love of learning-which I'm sure you do already.

I moved DS1 from a private prep to a state school recently. The state school is far better for him, he's exceptionally bright and wasn't being stretched even in the academic environment of his prep school, but teachers here treat him as an individual far more than they did in the private school. My DS is rather eccentric, possibly borderline Aspergers but certainly very bright. They didn't know what to do with him and couldn't handle the fact that he struggled socially. He loves his state school, goes up to the year above for numeracy as he's way ahead of others in his class and they cater to his ability far better than the private school did. So you never know. I know lots of parents who are enamoured with the prep school he attended, but also several who are very critical of the way they do things there. As another poster earlier mentioned, it can be a bit too formal.

Yes, there are plenty of private schools not up to the job of helping the range of children reach their potential. I wasn't suggesting private school was always a better option. But I am convinced that it is the well behaved quiet child who hides their light a little who are the ones most let down by the state system.

thanks redcardigan, "a well behaved quiet child who hides their light a little" describes my DD to a T ! Some of her little buddies are very good at what l would term self promotion of their own abilities .

l have followed up on our latest parents evening and made it very clear how open to learning DD is and could perhaps be a bit more stretched at school to realise her potential. l also stressed that I see this as a 50/50 effort between school and home and l would be happy to be guided on what we can do in the home environment to fill any 'gaps'.

We are already doing most of what you have suggested. My plan is whilst she is so eager to do more at home to take full advantage of this as l know a time may come when she is less interested at the end of the school day.

l have studied the criteria for the levels and now understand (as much as a non-teacher) can what she needs to display and provide evidence of at school.

My hope is that her YR2 teacher will be one open to 'moving up' and 'stretching' pupils.

going on what you said myredcardigan i totally agree with that im from a very MC area and the schools are "outstanding" sats driven ect ect ive two DCs who went to this middle and now a secondary school in the same MC area the secondary is the top school in our city and my two DCs are doing fantastic both straight A/A* students but oh dear my youngest DS whos autistic was pushed to the back,ignored, stuck in the hallway segregated, stopped from having breaktimes even punished basically for his differences they were intolerant, unhelpful and downright unkind i have spoken to many other parents at the same schools and they have agreed all well and good if your childs in the middle they are left floating there but okish if in the top spectrum they are treated fantastic as my two older Dc's were but children with sen omg they may as well have Leprosy my DS was failed by pre school first and two middle schools all in this affluent area im not saying none of the teachers cared though certain ones were well meaning but rarely you seemed to find anyone who actually would stand up to the HT and say stop we have to do something for fear of reprisals when they quite obviously knew he was being treated badly

My, this is a depressing thread to read, having come home from a hard week's work at school, laden with homeworks, assessment and coursework to mark.

There is so much misunderstanding here about what makes good teaching that it is frightening!

Why is it that when we go to the dentist we don't sit there and close-question the dentist about exactly how s/he is about to proceed with and whether they had thought of trying this other way of doing it we thought up in the waiting room just now.

I do wonder why I spent all that time training really...

Migrating
because you know that we don't

Is there no professional safe from the general public knowing better! Dam Wiki and dam Google!!!

Migrating, I think we should hold our hands up more and say, 'look in this class of 30+, there is no way I am able to devote enough time to every DC and make sure they are all reaching their absolute potential.'

It doesn't make us bad teachers to admit the system is deeply flawed. I do my absolute best but I don't doubt I could do more with 10 less children in my class. I also know that some schools are so wrapped up in the SATs and results culture that they (understandably) focus their effort where they see most results. Unfortunately, this is often the top and bottom ability wise.

Hey coconuts, I love you

Re well-behaved polite kids that get ignored - I've got one of those too. She's now in yr7, top of all the top sets. My problem with this thread is that after 10 hrs of education I have yet to be disappointed in any of it. I don't live in leafy suburbia either. I went to private school so I robusta something to compare. What does my little bit of anecdotal evidence amount? A gnats piss probably but it's as valid as the OPs.

I have been delighted, grateful and admiring of all the teachers I've had contact with. Even the ones who didn't 'get' my kids.

So, myredcardigan, we have to assume that all children at private schools reach their potential, because of the amount of time 'devoted' to them?

My ds, who is at art college, has never met so many people from private school! I take it that each one has just reached his or her potential in art? Looks to me like somewhere to send them if they don't make the grade for the top unis!

BTW agree with migrating - bloody depressing thread to read as you stare at two piles of literacy that have to be marked aginst individual targets this weekend.

Was depressed enough already as just discussed fact that children not meeting their bloody targets....

I am always pleasantly surprised how well teachers seem to know my children. One average, the other very quiet and well behaved (at school at least )

Maybe because it is not 'outstanding'

Ormirian, that's a fabby bit of sense you posted there! (including the bit about me )

Myredcardigan, you are most likey right there. Would it be too early in the evning for me to suggest we close all the private schools, redirect the resources into the state sector and therefore reduce class size?

No, ok then, a for me and all my marking then....

FedUpWithSchools Fri 18-Mar-11 09:46:17
"Well, that is great for you Cory, your school sounds great. But I am not sure how the kids from the bottom table are going to progress over the years?"

By asking their secondary school teachers/head of the year what they need to do to move up and asking to be given extra work. Secondary schools tend to have regular parent/mentoring meetings, with clearly defined levels and targets for the individual child.

Hey stoats..we could trade work!

Migrating, how would we redirect all the resources? The money in the private sector comes from fees unless you are suggesting means tested schooling!

Stoats, firstly, I'm not at all advocating that all private schools are better, simply that small class sizes do make a huge difference.

Oh and one of the biggest things I've noticed in the private sector, or certainly the senior school we are interested in, is that even kids who are predicted 4 A*s at Alevel are encouraged to follow whatever they want. So such a pupil would be equally encouraged to do sculpture as they would law or medicine. And this is a highly selective school too.

My limited experience from my own 6th form days in the state sector were very much that the very bright kids were encouraged into the preofessions even if they showed an interest or aptitude for dressmaking, say.

Hope the marking goes ok. This term is my turn (job share) to do the writing APP. That will be all Easter holiday then.

Funny, but my experience of state primaries is in direct opposition to OP's.

DD1 is in top group and until this year, have felt that top group was largely ignored - because the school felt confident they would all do well in SATs they were notworth focusing on. DD2 is youngest in class so has always found it harder - is in middle or top groups and has had a fantastic experience with loads of brilliant teaching aimed perfectly at her. So we've actually found that middle/struggling children are particularly well servd by the state system - it will not let them 'fall through the cracks'.

That said, DD1 has just got into grammar school - and from a state school and all, who would have thunk it?

Also - unlike the OP, I love the fact they do loads of making stuff, craft, music etc etc activities - they really enjoy it and learn loads. I'd rather they got no homework at all - I got none at my state primary school school and still came top of my grammar school entrance exam (preens).

If your child is grammar school material he'll get in from a state school - if he's not, you might manage to squeeze him into the bottom set of a grammar school, by paying for tutoring or prep school, but for what? There are lots of excelent comps out there too. Although I like grammars, I think you overrate them too - getting into grammar is not the be all and end all of a child's education...