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Primary education

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Private schools, wow what a difference! (Year 4)

365 replies

FedUpWithSchools · 17/03/2011 12:48

Got very disillusioned with DS?s ?outstanding? primary. First alarm bells started to ring in year 3, when every single day he?ll bring a drawing or a robot made of cardboard or a car made of boxes, you get the picture while he hardly got any homework. I tried talking to his teacher about it, but she was always very reassuring and said he is doing fine. I am a foreigner, so was not so familiar with a UK education system and thought the teacher knows what she is doing. Then in year 4 I found out about sets. Apparently my son is in a middle set for everything. According to teacher, he got an ability to be in a top set in a different class, but because his class is overall ?exceptionally bright?, the top set is working at a level of year 5, or even sometimes year 6. My son complains that on days that they got math (and they don?t do math every day), bottom set gets to ?play? on PCs ? they do educational games, middle set gets work to do on their own, and the teacher sits with the top set (5 kids out of a class of 35) and teaches them. If my son or anybody else gets ?stuck? on their work, the teacher with just get very stressed and will tell him in a raised voice just to get on with his work or read a book or draw something if he is finished. Bottom set gets a ?special? teacher to work with them a few times a week during literacy and math lessons. Children never move between sets. Sometimes my son finishes his work quickly and asks to listen or join with the top set, but teacher always gets annoyed and sends him back to his table.

I had a parents meeting with the teacher a few weeks ago, and raised all my concerns. I am very worried about the amount of stuff he is learning at school, as the 11+ is looming and only the top 5 kids are getting sufficient tutoring to pass the exam. The teacher agreed with me, and hinted that it will benefit my son to get a tutor or even better a private school. So off we went to look for a private. And all I can say is wow! We visited 4 schools in total. Class sizes vary from 16 to 22; 2 schools were selective, another 2 are not. But all 4 of the schools had a grammar pass rate between 90% and 85%. My son?s school sends around 6 kids out of 70 each year, so 3 kids per class. In all private schools that we visited all kids are taught by the same teacher at the same level. They also sit on their own desks facing the teacher, not in groups. Children get books for each subject, so the parent knows exactly what is covered at school on each given day, and will be able to go over it at home if needed. There is also an hour of homework every day and in year 5 schools run ?summer schools? to coach for 11+ exams. Some schools also had longer days in year 5 to cover the material quicker and start preparing for 11+ earlier in the year.

To be honest, the difference of standards and attainment really shocked me. How do they manage to teach every single kid in a classroom to the same level when a state school claims its impossible? Why state school cant just teach all kids at the same level, with kids all sitting and listening to the teacher instead of sitting in groups around round tables, sometimes with their backs to the blackboard? I really don?t get it. We are moving our son next week to a new school, wish I knew about the differences earlier, feeling guilty now for denying him a proper education for so many years.

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SoupDragon · 18/03/2011 10:03

DSs school has top middle and bottom groups for maths and English. Everything else is taught to the whole class. In addition, a handful of children from each class in KS2 are taken out for extended maths once a week, working at least a year ahead of the class. In addition, they run occasional special "workshops" in things such as spelling, handwriting and maths to help those struggling in particular areas.

This appears to give every child the chance to reach their full potential (and OFSTED appear to agree).

The OPs perhaps has a crap state primary. There are plenty of them about.

Mousesmummy · 18/03/2011 10:04

I LOVE it when grown adults 'share' their educational qualifications with others!!
"I have 2 GCSE's" innit!"
LOL

SoupDragon · 18/03/2011 10:06

I have a 25m swimming certificate.

FedUpWithSchools · 18/03/2011 10:07

Hi homeschooling, your kids sound wonedrful :) I know what you mean about things staying in their records for the rest of their school life, I think some people are very naive and trust schools and teachers too much. While some teachers really care about kids, there are many that just cant be bothered.

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FedUpWithSchools · 18/03/2011 10:09

Well SOupDragon, if in my son's class there was a mobility between groups, extra help, etc etc, I wont be looking around (on a teacher's recommendation)...

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Mousesmummy · 18/03/2011 10:11

I've got a couple of Brownie badges - do they count?

Cortina · 18/03/2011 10:13

In an ideal world the curriculum is rolled out to the individual child at an appropriate level for them. In an ideal world we believe ability isn't fixed in any sense and children can surprise us and so on and so forth. It's very difficult when classes are large.

In our school sets tend to be fairly stagnant and 'middle ability' children might not be exposed to the same material as those in the top set - even though they may well be possible of grasping it especially with some gentle reinforcement at home.

There are often behaviour problems in the bottom set IME and some children, who would otherwise be capable of more, switch off. Our top set would all sit together and look earnestly at the teacher, arms in the air, questions on their lips..Within this group it was clearly 'cool' to work hard. Less so in the other sets, the difference in work ethic was visible in the classroom. It's hard to concentrate at a table where pens are being thrown about and your chair is being taken after all. But what else could a teacher do with a large class and children working at different levels? Over time a self fulfilling prophecy creeps into place. The 2Cs at KS1? Well they wouldn't be grammar school material going forward, clearly. They couldn't be after all they were middle and bottom set and below average. Ok, the odd one might surprise you but it wouldn't be the norm.

It's been traditionally almost impossible in our primary for a child to progress to the top set without help. It looks like things are changing though with some excellent teachers this year.

FedUpWithSchools · 18/03/2011 10:14

Mousesmummy, I've mentioned my education only because of your xenophobic comments, you made me feel defensive.

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FedUpWithSchools · 18/03/2011 10:16

At DS's class the bottom table is known as a "stupid table". Not sure it helps with the confidence of the kids...

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rabbitstew · 18/03/2011 10:18

FedUpWithSchools - you say, "I think some people are very naive and trust schools and teachers too much." You sound that way with respect to the private schools you've seen.

TalkinPeace2 · 18/03/2011 10:18

Who by?
Stuck up parents?
Kids?
Teachers?
methinks you are over egging it

Cortina · 18/03/2011 10:19

eek, sorry, meant to say 'may well be capable of grasping it' rather than 'possible'.

FedUpWithSchools · 18/03/2011 10:22

Talkin, I am not kidding, DS told me that two kids got into a detention for saying it and teasing other kids.

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FedUpWithSchools · 18/03/2011 10:24

His class is very competitive and there is a lot of talk about "triangles" doing this a and "circles" doing that.

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crunchbag · 18/03/2011 10:42

FedUp, at least the school is dealing with it.
I hope your new school will deal with it too as it will be your son in the bottom stupid table at the start.

I agree with the poster who said that you panicked and it seems that the private schools have grabbed that gap in the market.

ineedagoodsolicitor · 18/03/2011 10:43

Regarding sets....

I am starting to like the idea of all children taught facing the front of the class and not in groups around tables.

Do you know why ?

This year, year 3 for my ds, for the first year since reception he has been subject to the teacher's theory that mixed ability tables would be better for all, avoiding table ability stigma etc.

So, as an easily distracted 7 year old he has suffered the irritation of child x (who may have mild behavioural problems but who gets no additional support in the classroom) "improving" his work, nudging his pencil when he is writing, jogging his knee under the table, hiding his ruler/calculator and denying it, all causing words to be said and ds being classed as just as much to blame as child x.
Ds didn't seem to be the cause of class room trouble in the 3 previous years at this school, he has been singled out and awarded merits for his excellent classroom behaviour. The difference this year, mixed ability tables ! Previous years, he and other children of the same ability sat together and got on with things, conversing appropriately.

Parent's evening last night was disappointing. I am resigned to continuing to supplement school learning with extension work at home as the class teacher isn't bothered that he is not being remotely challenged by the weekly spellings list or the maths homework. He was not progressing much at all this year, until I started to supplement things at home. Maybe others were benefitting from mixed ability tables at his expense. If things don't improve in year 4 I will despair at my financial inability to pay for umpteen years of private schooling so thanks for pointing out what I'll potentially be missing out on OP.

rabbitstew · 18/03/2011 11:10

But ineedagoodsolicitor - I distinctly remember from secondary school that sitting in rows at desks, facing the teacher does not eliminate the ability of other children to nudge your pencil, jog your knee and otherwise irritate you...

rabbitstew · 18/03/2011 11:14

FedUpWithSchools - your ds's current school sounds pretty dire. Did you not realise that OFSTED rankings are based on so many things that a school can be "outstanding" for all the wrong reasons, and rubbish at all the important things?

crunchbag · 18/03/2011 11:14

Conversing appropriately LOL

ineedagoodsolicitor · 18/03/2011 11:16

Ha, Ha, and sooo much more irritating stuff too at secondary school rabbitstew

FedUpWithSchools · 18/03/2011 11:18

Rabbitstew, as I said I come from a different country, did not have a clue about OFSTED, etc, etc. That is why I did trust the school for so many years, I thought it was a great school, as all kids are mostly polite and friendly, DS loves it, so I did not really notice what is going on until I started looking into Grammar exams and read so much about education in UK, started to question the teacher and researched other options...

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ineedagoodsolicitor · 18/03/2011 11:26

Yes, conversing,

verb, to engage in conversation.

Appropriately, as far as ks1/ks2 kids can, such as talking about the maths problems they were tackling, doing guided reading together and discussing the book, telling each other what they thought would happen in the science project, and then chatty stuff too by all accounts.

Lovely to see in action and trashed by mixed ability pc'ness this year.

crunchbag · 18/03/2011 11:49

Thanks for explaining what conversing means Hmm

But we are talking about 7-8 year olds here who need to learn how to converse (appropriately or inappropriately )with people of different levels.

But by all means keep your child away from the 'lower' ability child, it might be catching.

rabbitstew · 18/03/2011 11:52

OK, FedUpWithSchools - I can see why you are upset. It isn't that all state schools in the UK fail their children and universally have the wrong approach to teaching and assessment, it's that you feel your ds's state school is failing your ds and you didn't realise. And, for what it's worth, it does sound as though they are failing your ds - it is not right that the middle sets should be left to their own devices so much, simply because they are doing "well enough." And shocking that so much whole class teaching time is actually being devoted to the teacher teaching the top set only.

crunchbag · 18/03/2011 12:03

Agree with rabbitstew. And I also think private school seems to fit your views on teaching methods very well.

Just go in with your eyes open, don't judge a book by its cover :)