Private schools, wow what a difference! (Year 4)

[FedUpWithSchools]

Got very disillusioned with DS?s ?outstanding? primary. First alarm bells started to ring in year 3, when every single day he?ll bring a drawing or a robot made of cardboard or a car made of boxes, you get the picture while he hardly got any homework. I tried talking to his teacher about it, but she was always very reassuring and said he is doing fine. I am a foreigner, so was not so familiar with a UK education system and thought the teacher knows what she is doing. Then in year 4 I found out about sets. Apparently my son is in a middle set for everything. According to teacher, he got an ability to be in a top set in a different class, but because his class is overall ?exceptionally bright?, the top set is working at a level of year 5, or even sometimes year 6. My son complains that on days that they got math (and they don?t do math every day), bottom set gets to ?play? on PCs ? they do educational games, middle set gets work to do on their own, and the teacher sits with the top set (5 kids out of a class of 35) and teaches them. If my son or anybody else gets ?stuck? on their work, the teacher with just get very stressed and will tell him in a raised voice just to get on with his work or read a book or draw something if he is finished. Bottom set gets a ?special? teacher to work with them a few times a week during literacy and math lessons. Children never move between sets. Sometimes my son finishes his work quickly and asks to listen or join with the top set, but teacher always gets annoyed and sends him back to his table.

I had a parents meeting with the teacher a few weeks ago, and raised all my concerns. I am very worried about the amount of stuff he is learning at school, as the 11+ is looming and only the top 5 kids are getting sufficient tutoring to pass the exam. The teacher agreed with me, and hinted that it will benefit my son to get a tutor or even better a private school. So off we went to look for a private. And all I can say is wow! We visited 4 schools in total. Class sizes vary from 16 to 22; 2 schools were selective, another 2 are not. But all 4 of the schools had a grammar pass rate between 90% and 85%. My son?s school sends around 6 kids out of 70 each year, so 3 kids per class. In all private schools that we visited all kids are taught by the same teacher at the same level. They also sit on their own desks facing the teacher, not in groups. Children get books for each subject, so the parent knows exactly what is covered at school on each given day, and will be able to go over it at home if needed. There is also an hour of homework every day and in year 5 schools run ?summer schools? to coach for 11+ exams. Some schools also had longer days in year 5 to cover the material quicker and start preparing for 11+ earlier in the year.

To be honest, the difference of standards and attainment really shocked me. How do they manage to teach every single kid in a classroom to the same level when a state school claims its impossible? Why state school cant just teach all kids at the same level, with kids all sitting and listening to the teacher instead of sitting in groups around round tables, sometimes with their backs to the blackboard? I really don?t get it. We are moving our son next week to a new school, wish I knew about the differences earlier, feeling guilty now for denying him a proper education for so many years.

Sorry OP I thought your son was in Y3 too. Must have got the wrong end of the stick somewhere.

It was the stick labelled 'Year 3', I think.

Hi JoanofArgos, Sorry my post was not clear. What I was trying to say that I started to worry in year 3, but my panic set in fully in year 4. And I feel like the most of this academic year is already over. So sorry for misunderstandings.

To give you example of his homework for this week: Spelling, 20 words (words like Summer, Little, etc). Math - draw a triangle with equal sides. Find the perimeter of a square. That is all. And he is in a top of the middle set. God knows what bottom set gets to do at home, all sets get different homeworks.

Fedup
As there are only 164 Grammar schools in England, the vast bulk of which are in three counties (Kent, Lincolnshire and Buckinghamshire) all comments about the 11+ are irrelevant to most of us who support the comp schools we pay for and expect our children to do excellently at.

Private schools are not all good. Nor are state schools.
Private schools are not all bad. Nor are state schools.

The best predictor of a child's academic outcomes is the education level of the parents. What do your DC's see you reading and watching?

You don't even have your son started at the private school yet, but you're raving about the private school sector as though he's already graduated? I feel very

Yes on paper private schools get better results. There are all sorts of reasons for that that do not have anything to do with superior quality of teaching.

I have one in private & two in state sector. No axe to grind either way.

Talkin, I dont watch TV, only news in the morning, as I dont have time with the baby and studying for my second degree. But yes, our house is full of books and we all love to read, including my son.

Ragged, I only commented on the set up of the classroom, homework and results of the school. And I am wondering why it cannot be achieved at the state schools too. But yes, I was very impressed with what I've seen so far. Is it a crime?

Yes, so the point I was making was that you weren't happy with the amount of creative stuff he was doing in Year 3, yes?

Why can't it be achieved at state schools too? Because state schools also have the lower and middle ability kids there, not just a school full of 'top table'ites with perhaps the odd kid who is less bright but whose parents are quite wealthy, maybe?

When I went to school, we had one lesson a week of "art", the rest was science, math, foreign language, etc. So yes, I am a bit uncomfortable with the amount of "creative" stuff going on. Esp. when it is exactly the same every year, I got 3 robots and 3 cars made of refuse, and countless amount of pots in the past 3 years, LOL.

In all private schools that we visited all kids are taught by the same teacher at the same level... why state school cant just teach all kids at the same level?

All children have different abilities, but in the fee-paying schools there are half the number of children per class, so those finding it more difficult to keep up will be able to be supported more by their teacher, rather than a child in a class of 35.

Re grammar school entrance- the fee-paying schools may well have 85%-90% pass rates, but how many of those children also had additional tuition? Parents already forking out for fees won't hesitate to spend on a tutor too if they think it maximises their child's chances. One of the fee-paying schools near us has the highest pass rate in our area for selective secondaries (state grammar and fee-paying selectives), but talking to a parent whom I know, I discovered that only 1 child out of the 56 in Y6 didn't have a tutor at home too

It does sound as though your DS's school is not a very good one though...

Sorry... meant to continue- the spellings are odd- my DD has done words such as Summer and Little already, and she is in Reception.

But how is it fare for a child to be hold back for the rest of his life because he did not achieve well when he was 4, and got stuck in a bottom or middle set? Read this research, it proves that kids are not achieving their potential in the classes that got sets:

www.soton.ac.uk/~jbs/PHDquant/Readings/713651707%5B1%5D.pdf

Sorry for the spelling mistakes, :)

Should read "how is it fair to be held back"

I've never heard of setting in primary schools, that does sound a bit odd actually and probably not a good idea. I think it can be useful later on in secondary school, we had setting from Yr 8 up to GCSEs IIRC.

"Thank you Fabi76! Please dont listen to people going on and on about "excellent" state schools. The way I see it the child will get a great education in a state school as long as he is in a top set."

No, of course I can't. For several reason, not least of which is the fact our borough has no grammar schools. then there is the fact that state schools admit everyone regardless of ability. Private primaries with this kind of boast do not take in thick children regardless of what they claim.

You seem to have the rather dim view that a great education = entry to grammar school. Well, that's not the case is it? Not every child is capable ot getting into grammar school. They can still get a great education.

Then there is the fact that if your child is not naturally bright enough to get into grammer school without significant extra tuition from their private school then they are going to struggle and fail at the grammar school they managed to get into.

All my children went/go to an outstanding primary. There are a fair number of children with additional needs ranging from simple dyslexia, ADHD and autism to cerebal palsy and downs syndrome. There is also a fairly diverse catchment. So no. They are never going to get 90% into a mythical grammar school. Does this mean the children haven't had a great education? No.

DS1 is now at an academically selective private secondary so I am not against private education in the slightest. I just think you are being naive as to what it offers and how and also about the fact that you judge the entire state sector on the basis of one single school.

According to the paper I mentioned before:
^6While all the teachers said that they viewed ability as changeable, at least to some
extent, it was also found that none of them had made more than a very few changes
between the different ability groups over the past 6 months. If they really did believe that
ability was changeable, they were not behaving as if it was and the problem of
misplacement would seem likely to be a real one. Teachers? comments suggested that
some of them may be aware of this problem but that pressure of time and social
considerations stood in the way of them making regular transfers between groups in
response to ongoing assessment.^

FedUp, not all children in bottom and middle sets are held back, many of them work to the best of their abilities. Not every child is an Einstein in the making.

Have you looked at other state schools in the area?

"In all private schools that we visited all kids are taught by the same teacher at the same level... why state school cant just teach all kids at the same level?"

Because the private schools have 16 children of about the same ability, rather than 30-35 children ranging from struggling to extremely bright. If you teach them all to the same ability, at least 2/3s of the class would miss out.

Crunchbag, I dont have time to experiment with schools, as I said the exams are looming and we got only one shot at it.

Looking at DS2's class, do you really think the autistic boy and the ones taken out for extended maths are going to be best served by being taught at the same level?

That research Paper.....
^This research examined within-class grouping for mathematics in six classes
in one primary school.^
The sample consisted of 145 children in years 3 to 5.

utterly statisically invalid
and dated from 2002

Well, these are exceptions. There are no kids with special needs in DS's class, and according to ofstead the number is much lower than the national average. Same with the free school meals. There are all quite bright children, sure there are more than 5 in the class that could do better.