Actually, no, I don't think my son has ADHD, or sensory integration issues, or conduct disorder or behavioural 'problems'...

[WilfShelf]

...or any thing else that can be labelled and which individualises and medicalises the issue.

And the REAL issue is that there is a class of 30 children, and he is a little person who is different and he won't sit quietly like the girls (who are, after all, the 'model' for good behaviour in primary schools).

And the friendship dynamic with one particular group of children is dysfunctional and actually he is simply SAD because he can't feel like he has real friends and the school is not helping that.

And the recognition that he is a physical, creative person doesn't seem to fit the model of what a school child should be. The school seems to be becoming more rigid, more over-reactive: what to me seem quite 'normal' behaviour blips are being pursued with 'intervention'. I don't want it, and he doesn't need it.

Argh.

I live in a cultural desert: there is NO hope of finding a suitable alternative school, I need to work so can't home ed, so what do I do?

If it's any consolation, I get that attitude from the other parents in DS class. Apparently I am a lax mother when it comes to discipline and that is why Ds behaves the way he does.

(and breath.....)

How do you know for sure he doesn't have any of the problems they suggest? They will have had a lot of experience in dealing with children and various behaviours after all.

If you give them a chance they may be able to help him immensely and through that process he may indeed learn how to handle friendships and form friends with his peers, which surely is to his benefit.

I think you would be wrong to simply move to another school where you may well encounter the same problems with your DS but be offered no constructive help as the current school is actually doing.

Wow. Thanks all for your replies and discussion of the background issues. Sorry to have posted and run - took my 3 boys out for fresh air, running and rolling down hills.

DS is 6, and the oldest in his class.

I don't 'know' he doesn't have any SEN, but I am cautious about the label. FWIW, the teachers HAVEN'T diagnosed him or attempted to and I didn't want to suggest they had. But they have suggested behavioural support, and possibly, next if things don't resolve a CAF (?I have no idea what this is...). I feel like this is a slippery slope. I did ask them about whether they thought they were seeing a series of behaviours that added up to something significant. They said they thought they had seen this before as a group of behaviours but didn't want to be drawn. However, I'm not daft, and when they started asking about halloween sweets and e-numbers, screen time and stuff over half term, I put two and two together etc..

They asked how he had been over half term - he had been at a playscheme. Absolutely fine was the answer - no behavioural issues, no impulsiveness or hitting etc.. He did behave VERY badly on the last Sunday of half term but guess what - he didn't want to go to school the next day, because school makes him unhappy...

I have read the NICE recommendations and research on ADHD from cover to cover since our last meeting. And this - as well as lots of other mental health issues - is clearly something which is contested and part of continuum. So I accept that some of my son's behaviours could be described in the DSM-IV manner for ADHD. But then so could some of mine. And his friends'. And their friends.

And isn't that the problem? That ADHD - for example, and perhaps more than other SEN issues - is incredibly tough to classify. The teachers aren't saying this - but they do want to get 'experts' in to observe. I am probably being precipitous but I think once you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail...

Right now, for example, he is sitting quietly, calmly and still watching
Nuzzle and Scratch with his brothers. He sat through his lunch with only a little bit of firm voice from me. He played quite happily with some friends at the park with no aggro. And one of their mothers who I don't know very well but who turns out is a clinical psychologist said 'Don't be ridiculous' when I put the notion to her. He likes to sit and draw. He can play lego (isn't that a 'test'?) and K-nex, following instructions and not throwing things across the room. He writes beautifully: creatively, neatly and with small well-formed letters, is ahead of his age ability intellectually and, like his elder brother, is a pretty talented mathematician. He goes to Beavers (no problems there either).

Yes - he has had some impulsive outbursts, including pure stupidity and sometimes violence at school. I am ABSOLUTELY clear for those who are asking 'well don't you think the school should do something about it?' that they should. As should we: we have done and we continue to both support what they want to do, and work at home on clear boundaries and expectations etc..

I totally get where you are coming from, OP. However, it is worth pursuing suggestions that these conditions might be relevant for your son NOW, if only to discount them early on. And if he does have a condition like AS, he will benefit massively from early diagnosis, as he will get much more support in this imperfect school system within which most of us have to operate.

Just don't discount it yet. And try not to be too defensive. My son was diagnosed with AS earlier this year, and it is in no way holding him back now that he has the support he needs. It doesn't have to be a big scary label or treated like some kind of handicap. He just thinks and acts a bit differently to the majority of his peers sometimes over some things.

Good luck.

Yeah, I really DON'T want to move him to another school - I accept that he does have some behavioural issues in school, and that something needs to be done: and moving him isn't going to solve that wherever he is.

But I am not sure whether the approach they are taking is the right one.

I am definitely, however, going to get an independent psych assessment of him. I am open to the idea that he might have SEN, but I am sceptical at the same time.

Does anyone know how I might go about getting an independent assessment? Can anyone recommend someone - will travel if necessary.

The thing about if you have a hammer everything looks like a nail is just not true.

The professionals are very reluctant to diagnose anything. It is highly unlikely you would get a dx of something he didn't have.

Interesting question about whether I have been into class to observe him: I didn't know I could. He would behave differently if I was there, though, surely?

reading this last post, Wilf, some things have occurred to me:

he has 'switched off' from school - possibly the teacher doesn't like him and is being a bit unprofessional in how they react to him (the Ton-Of Bricks approach when in reality he is displaying 'normal' 6 year old behaviour) and he's not stupid, he'll pick this up

He behaved himself at play scheme, again underlining the notion that school is a problem for him at the moment

The dysfunctional friendship dynamic I feel might provide the key to all this

DO you feel able to elaborate on this? Don't worry if you can't

Will - just to add, it's good that you are cautious. You are your child's best advocate and know him better than anyone, so you have to believe that there is a need for exploration or assessment of his issues and/or diagnosis before this can/should happen.

Go with your instincts, but stay open, is what I guess I am saying.

Oh, sorry, the convo moved on somewhat

IndigoBell, thanks - I hope so. How does this square with the huge increase in diagnosis of ADHD? And the controversies over it as a 'syndrome'? These are not hostile questions, I'm just genuinely interested in how things work in practice.

You can get a private Ed Psych report, but get a reccomendation and be prepared to a) wait for a few months on a waiting list and b) ay through the ose! SOS:SEN or NAS or IPSEA will be able to send you a list of ones they use - google these organisations.

The thing I would be wary about with private assessment is that it isn't multi-disciplinary. The NHS assessments are long-winded and fucking frustrating (voice of bitter experience), but they are generally thorough. We saw a Paed, an Ed Psych, a Speech and Language Therapist, a Psychotherapist, an Occupational Therapist and various ASD specialists before DS was diagnosed. They don't diagnose AS or ADHD on a whim, trust me! Why? because once children have a diagnosis, they are more likely to get a statement, which means big bucks spent by the local authority until they are 18 yrs old and possibly beyond that.

NHS/PCTs and LAs work in cahoots a lot of the time and aren't just going to diagnose a slightly naughty/disnegaged boy with a serious, life long condition. Promise!

b) should say pay through the nose!

I don't think friends and aquaintances, even if they are healthcare professionals, can make proper judgements on your child or are even really very honest when asked on the spot. It seems the Teachers are concerned about classroom behavior so maybe that's why playdates / TV time is not so much of an problem for him.

The people that know your son and work with him every day are best to advise and it seems like they just want to start the assessment process rolling which may really help him. I work with families that would have jumped at the chance of early intervention as it will have a more positive outcome.

Octavia, your comment was stupid and offensive.

I think you should move this over to the SN board where people with experience will be able to help you.

Luckily I know nothing about ADHD.

My son has a dx of ASD - it took a year to get the dx. He had to be observed by a paed twice with 6 months in between and an ed psych and an OT and a report from school and a report from us. All of us had to observe all of the triad of impairments.

I don't know how ADHD is diagnosed, but I would be very surprised if it wasn't something similair.

There are loads and loads of reasons why diagnosis of ADHD and ASD could be increasing. Certainly it is very likely 20 years ago your son would have been written off as naughty and no help ever offered for him.

ADHD and ASD diagnoses have risen in this country, it is true. Lots of reasons for why this could be - it is a complex issue that deserves more than my anecdotal spiel on MN .

But you are right. The increase in ADHD diagnosis is particularly controversial, although in the main not because of the increase (medics would argue this is a result of better, more sophisticated diagnosis techniques), but that in the US and some other countries it is treated routinely with drugs, which raises a whole catalogue of further questions.

In the UK, Ritalin is not handed out willy nilly, however, and health professioanls generally have a much more balanced approach to these things.

By the way, I don't think my son is 'perfect'. That would be a dreadful thing to think. I think, as with most people, that he has his own fair share of flaws, and weirdnesses, and personality quirks, and some of them are pleasant and some are not.

I happen to think the same about everyone, SN, NT, mental health problems or not. What I don't believe is a straightforward medical model of health, mental health in particular: it is convenient to think of bodies as 'perfect' or 'flawed', but I don't think it is particularly accurate.

WilfShelf Sat 06-Nov-10 16:48:25

^DS is 6, and the oldest in his class.
next if things don't resolve a CAF (?I have no idea what this is...)^.
CAF Common Assessment Framework involves parents and a range of professionals (not just school) agreeing strategies to support the child.

However, I'm not daft, and when they started asking about halloween sweets and e-numbers, screen time and stuff over half term, I put two and two together etc..

My son's ADHD is triggered by dairy and wheat products e numbers don't have any effect whatsoever ... so maybe 2 + 2 isn't so clear...

He likes to sit and draw. He can play lego (isn't that a 'test'?) and K-nex, following instructions and not throwing things across the room. He writes beautifully: creatively, neatly and with small well-formed letters, is ahead of his age ability intellectually and, like his elder brother, is a pretty talented mathematician. He goes to Beavers (no problems there either).
I'm afraid this doesn't rule out ADHD as it is quite common

Yes - he has had some impulsive outbursts, including pure stupidity and sometimes violence at school.
and this doesn't rule it in, which is why teachers won't attempt to make a diagnosis

OP I'm going through exactly the same with my 8 year old DS. I'm also frustrated and feel at a loss much of the time. I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm going down the ed pscyh route and will likely end up paying for this privately because the school don't see my DS as a priority. I do want to keep an open mind but school is really the only place that my DS experiences these problems (although to be honest the 'problems' seem relatively tame to me). I happen to work in mental health and have friends who are child psychologists. DS has had sleep overs and has close relationship with two of the psychologists who cannot personally see any issues. DS just spent a week away from me with family in different part of the country, all the feedback was 'what a pleasure to have DS, he's so polite and respectful'. I'm not saying he's perfect, in fact he can be defiant and difficult, but on the whole I do not see the child that school see. I suspect it will be useful for you to go through the motions and rule out the possibility of SEN. Good luck. Your DS sounds adorable.

Wilf, ADHD and ASD and sensory issues can overlap considerably. Also, they all have a 'spectrum' from almost imperceptible (my NT DD2 has quite a few sensory dislikes which don't interfere in her day, as long as she avoids them) to very severe.

It is a positive thing that they aren't writing your DS off as 'naughty'.

The friendship dynamic: there are 19 boys in the class. My son is the eldest. The group of boys he 'likes' to play with are probably the loudest, craziest ones. They all want to play football all the time.

In the middle of all this, a smaller group have been together for quite a while, all at the same nursery for a bit, including my son. Similar problems emerged then: lots of bickering, fighting, jealousy, tears, x won't let me play with them etc.. Then - most of this smaller group moved to another nursery (the School nursery in fact). My son stayed put. There had been a history before then of him moving in and out of rooms in the first nursery also - because he was older than them, he was constantly separated from them, and then they caught up late (just because of the timing of room moves in that nursery).

Now, then the little cabal of boys left one nursery, leaving DS2 there having to make new friends, the problems stopped. Instantly.
So then they were all thrown back together again in reception. Bingo: all the problems started up again.

I have mentioned this over and over again to the teachers and the head, but they just look blankly at me. Or say 'well the issues aren't just with those children' or 'it's more general things like sitting on the mat' etc. I think they have made their mind up.

The problem though is that I think this dynamic makes him miserable. It isn't that it is the thing driving every incident; more that if his self-esteem was stronger at school because he fitted in more, he wouldn't need to gain attention from silliness.

Some of the other kids now try hard to get DS2 in trouble. And he says when he tells the teachers, they don't listen. He might be making this up sometimes. But not always - someone has to believe him - the teacher clearly doesn't.

I am sorry that your son is not looking forward to school at the moment.

In an ideal world, you and the school would work together to make your son's school experience more positive and to address any behaviour issues. But here you seem to feel on a different side to the school - and probably the two of you aren't working in a very joined up way, so neither of you is going to get the best result from this situation. The school don't know about your ds when he is not at school, and you don't know all that much about when he is at school as you aren't there.

I recommend that you try to improve your relationship with the school and that this will benefit both you and your ds. Is there any mileage in this as a way forward?

I've been in a few times to see them about DS2. My elder son has been all through the school (now in Secondary school).

I am not sure how else I could help the relationship. We've been as candid AND supportive as we can be on everything they have suggested so far, and I'd like to think we're pretty well known to the school.