My daughter in year 1 is being stubborn, non compliant and disruptive, what can I do ???

[mummyloveslucy]

Hi, my daughter is in year 1. She settled in really well, but recently she's being very lazy in class and quite stubborn. She does have moderate learning dificulties but I'm not using that as an excuse as she's capable of doing far more than she is.
The teacher told me that one day she'd taken 2 hours to coppy one line of writing. When she told her she'd have to stay in at break until she'd done another line, she did it within about 30 seconds.
Her teacher said that she dosn't seem to be doing it to be naughty, as she's always smiling and very polite but just isn't prepared to work hard.
Her P.E teacher said that she spent a lesson doing her own thing despite repeatedly being told to listen etc. She was also disrupting the other children.
I also find it quite hard at times at home getting her to either do as she's asked or even to join in a game and follow my rules. She seems to only want to do her own thing and dosn't like being told what to do. It's a nightmare! Even when I tell her a story, she interupts saying things like "No,a princess not a girl" I tell her if she keeps interupting I'll leave, she always does it again so I leave and she misses out.
I am always consistant with her but she dosn't seem to mind her punishments and dosn't really respond well to positive re-enforcement either.
I'm not sure what to do with her? We had a day out together today and she spent most of the day making stupid noises and just really trying to wind me up. it isn't fun to take her out at all.
Does anyone have any words of wisdome? I really feel I need to act now, as this behaviour won't get better on it's own.

I would press your GP to make the referral to the diagnostic service tbh. Once you have either a label or a full picture of ds's difficulties you can set about sorting out the school provision. One step at a time, don't spread yourself too thinly, there may most likely be lots more battles ahead IME.

Could it be that she is just being attention seeking? Maybe she just likes being contradictory and doesn't care about punishments because she wants the attention. It seems that she is always well behaved, but just likes exploring her individuality and doing things differently and doesn't mind being told off, because this is the teacher and you paying attention to her. She sounds quite clever and as you said, it sounds like she is having them on, pretending that she can't do something, and then when the teacher threatens her with staying in during break, she shows the teacher that she can of course do it in 30 seconds. Sounds like she is clever, enjoys stringing them on, enjoys the attention they then give her, and then shows them how clever she is, when she wants to be.

Sounds like she is developing her independence and personality, playing the teacher along and enjoying being a bit naughty and special. Sounds like it could be just normal attention seeking behaviour, she probably wants more attention, and enjoys teasing the teacher and you, when you read her stories etc.

Also is she feeling left out? Is she being given differentiated work that is different from the rest of the class, and is this work too easy and boring for her? Is she rebelling politely and not seeing the point in copying out the writing, until the teacher finally pays some attention to her by threatening her with staying in at break? Is she then showing the teacher how pointless the work that she was given was, because she can do it in 30 seconds? Is it because her work is differentiated and she is feeling left out and neglected and does she want to be included in what the rest of the class are doing?

Claig - Are you aware that Lucy has moderate learning difficulties?

Yes I know that. I have read many of MMLs previous posts. But I think that Lucy making silly noises when out with MML is similar attention seeking behaviour. I think she may feel a bit left behind and left out at school because of her learning difficulties and may need the extra attention. I tend to agree with lostinafrica's post that the behaviour might not be that serious.

claig I disagree. A little girl that has MLD in an independent school with no support? I am amazed that Lucy has coped so far. In all the time I have read MLL's posts, not one of the issues she describes have been overcome. Not one. She is still soiling at school, she is still struggling, the only difference is that now her behaviour is being viewed as wilfull disobedience. That poor child.

My view is that Lucy must be relatively passive in her presentation, because my DD is officially MLD and yet can't be contained at MS.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but IMVHO, it is not helpful to Lucy or her mother to give a 'normal' angle on this. To push this back as Lucy's responsibility. MLL has spent almost 4 years burying her head in the sand, hoping this will go away. It won't. To suggest that Lucy is simply atttention seeking is downright sad.

MLL if you are reading this post, I wish I could have taken you to the morning session I attended on Sensory Issues at my DD's Special School. It was eyeopening, revelatory, and I have read a great deal about sensory stuff in the past. But to listen to this woman describe some of her successes with sensory measures that are down to earth and simple, was breathtaking.

Please take Lucy seriously. Don't write her off as a naughty stubborn girl. She is a child who needs a differentiated curriculum with suitable teaching methods - give her those, and you'll see the Lucy you crave.

I read it differently to you. I think Lucy needs lots of extra special attention, care and tuition, because she probably feels a bit left behind the other children. I think it is normal for her to want that. I think she is being a little bit disruptive in order to stand out and get the attention she needs.

Why do you think that she was able to copy the writing in 30 seconds only when told she would have to be kept in? Do you think that was due to sensory issues?

Why do you think, she makes stupid noises to wind MLL up? Why do you think she wants to play games ny changing the rules and using her rules? Why do you think she interrupts stories about a girl and says "no, a princess not a girl"? I think she is clever and is experimenting and changing rules and adapting them. I think she is exerting her own influence and individuality and trying to provoke a reaction. I think she is experimenting. I think the best thing is to play along with her experiments, to let her explore where they lead to. I think it is OK for MLL to break some of these rules and let Lucy create some of her own rules. She may be bored by the rules of the game and find creating her own rules more exciting.

Of course Lucy needs lots of help with her learning difficulties, and I think that Lucy's current behaviour is a sign that she wants the attention and help.

I don't think that Lucy's behaviour is unusual, I think it is what I would do in the same circumstances and I think the teacher is possibly not understanding Lucy when the teacher "said that she'd never come accross a child like Lucy before, as she's stubborn yet seems happy and eager to please at the same time."

I would have to agree with Lougle tbh but I have two children with autism so can always see a different slant on things because at least one of mine will have done something similar.
I would presume that sensory overload would be an explanation for a lot of Lucy's behaviours so once the classroom was calm and quiet she could do what she had previously resisted.
From an ASD viewpoint I would imagine she would be questioning the need to copy something off of the board because logically it is already written down so why would she need to write it down herself.
I'd guess that the noises that Lucy makes aren't done to wind MLL up I'd hazard a guess that they are stims (self stimulatory behaviour) that she does either because she is anxious or excited or that she does to self regulate when in a situation that she finds confusing.
I would suppose that Lucy's need to have her own rules is because she has rigid and stereotyped ideas as to what should happen in stories and games and if she is in charge she doesn't have to cope with the uncertainty which is bewildering and upsetting for a child with ASD.
I think that the reason a teacher hasn't experienced a child like Lucy before is because she teaches in a small independent academically focused school and isn't equipped to provide a teaching style to meet Lucy's individual needs.

I too second what Lougle says MLL please don't dismiss Lucy as naughty, stubborn or attention seeking. She has real needs that aren't being addressed and it is somewhat miraculous that she has coped so far without the proper support to which she is entitled. I suspect that the reason she has coped is that she has a mum who adores her and and gives her a huge amount of love and support at home to make school seem bearable for her.

Those are good points asdx2 and that may be the case. mummyloveslucy will know more about whether that fits her behaviour.

But just a few weeks ago, Lucy was teacher's pet and there wasn't any defiance

"Since going into year 1, she's changed so much. She always wants to be first in, she takes a lot of pride in her work, she's always got her hand up to answer questions etc.
Every day I pick her up, the teacher says what a star she's been etc, or she has a sticker for good work.
She play acts a lot at home and when she plays schools and I have to be the teacher, she acts like Hermiony Granger.

She always asks to read her new book that she's bought home from school, where as before I had to encourage her to read it, and at bed time she'll often say "lets do some maths".

It seems that this stubborn, defiant behaviour is a new phase and Lucy hasn't been like this before. I think she may be feeling left behind by the older children and I think she is asking for help and extra attention and tuition by her stubborn and defiant behaviour. I think she is a very polite and well-behaved child and that is why "she's stubborn yet seems happy and eager to please at the same time."

But with autism it's like that tbh.My children's autism can be invisible in some situations even though it is moderate to severe autism and I'm pretty certain Lucy, if on the spectrum, is at the far more able end. It can also present itself differently at different times so dd for example has gone to school this morning full of the joys of spring whereas on friday she never wanted to go there again. This morning ds has worn a pair of socks that he wouldn't have contemplated three weeks ago and probably won't wear next week. It's confusing and frustrating and you can't presume that they are acting a certain way for effect or to be manipulative. On any given day they may be more or less sensitive, or tolerant, or anxious or stressed and it takes careful and sensitive handling to ensure these children make steady progress.

I agree with that, but don't you think that children without autism, can also act like that? I didn't have autism, but I was often very stubborn, defiant, manipulative and attention seeking, and at other times and with other teachers, I could be the exact opposite.

Marking place to read later...

But it's not an act for a child with autism, it's raw emotion that they are expressing the only way they know how in that situation at that given time.
With autism they don't have the insight to know how they should be behaving or how their behaviour affects other people.
They feel a certain way and act accordingly and how they feel can be influenced greatly by their surroundings and the trust and belief they have in the adult they see as "in charge"
Put it this way if you had an itch in an intimate place you would know that it isn't socially acceptable to itch it wherever you are and you would know that you would need to get to a toilet or somewhere private.
With autism they lack the instinctive knowledge of what is socially acceptable but also the ability to imagine an alternative acceptable behaviour.
Even at five children know a whole host of unwritten rules that underpin social interaction not because they have been taught but because they are instinctive and have been learned by observing others.

Yes but it wasn't an act for me either. If I felt angry and disruptive, then my emotions would cause me to be disruptive. I would also feel a certain way and then act accordingly. I didn't care what was socially acceptable and what the teacher thought was OK, I acted how I felt. There was a reason behind my actions and emotions. I think there is a reason behind Lucy's actions and behaviour. I think she may be realising how far behind she is and it makes her sad and she is reacting by trying to show the teacher that she needs more help by being slightly defiant.

MLL, you have had some very good advice on this thread (and others over the years) from various people, particularly Lougle. I am always hesitant to post on your threads because I don't have a child with SN, in fact I don't even have a girl. However, I am going to be blunt and say - please listen to people who do know what they are talking about.

This situation has been going on for years and you have been backwards and forwards over what to do and have always ended up doing nothing. I am not sure why you need to start investigating state schools, I thought you had already done this some time ago and were on the point of enrolling Lucy in one. Can you not skip the research stage again and approach the school(s) you had previously identified as suitable?

It is obvious from your posts that you love your daughter very much and want to do the best for her. However, I think you had an idealised version in your mind of how your daughter would be, you have talked of how she likes pretty dresses, how people compliment you on how polite and well-mannered she is etc. I think sending her to this school which turns out "little ladies" (I'm sure you used that phrase) is part of what you envisaged for your daughter but the reality is that the daughter you have is Lucy and the real life flesh-and-blood version does not necessarily match the fantasy - she's better but different, and no-one will fight for her if you don't.

But if it is autism she wouldn't have the theory of mind to recognise that she could get the attention she wanted by acting in a certain way. With autism she would presume that the teacher knows exactly how and what Lucy feels and that the teacher knows exactly what she needs to do to put it right for Lucy. Because as far as a child with autism is concerned everyone has the same feelings as they do and there is no need to communicate their needs because the other person knows already.
Dd, who despite having moderate to severe autism is academically bright, she speaks like a BBC newsreader and uses sophisticated speech and an extensive vocabulary just to give you an idea of who she is and level 3s across the board last year.She has been hugely anxious about Big Writing so spoke to her teacher and TA who assured me she has no need to worry she is doing very well. They went over everything that dd needed to do and made sure she knew what was required but still dd's anxiety is off the scale.
Dd was off school and missed two sessions of Big Writing but it still played on her mind and eventually she mentioned the Jelly Babies which play havoc with her sensory issues.
She didn't mention them before because despite speaking as well as she does she had no idea that I wouldn't know that was the cause of the bother even though I'm not there. She didn't mention it to the teacher or TA because she believed they felt the same way she does and couldn't imagine that there might be a solution ie an alternative reward.So even though dd has all the necessary skills to get her needs met she doesn't know how to use those skills to the desired effect.
I imagine that Lucy with moderate learning difficulties and a speech disorder besides has even less skills tbh.

Just reading the first page, and agree with others. My son has an ASD and he is just the same - stubborn, interrupts, cannot play board games etc as won't play by other people's rules... It is hugely frustrating and sometimes not much fun, but it isn't his fault.

Yes you are right, if it is autism. I think Lucy needs someone to advise and diagnose if it is autism or not.

I agree wholeheartedly with that then and would advise that MLL demands either an ADOS or DISCO assessment.
I've read MLL's posts for years and autism has been screaming out at me for ages tbh it's not just what has been posted recently.
Dd was diagnosed five years ago and has benefited enormously through having that diagnosis and specialist teaching. I think Lucy could benefit enormously too

Ok, now read the last page. I honestly don't think Lucy is in the right school. It is lovely when you have a child to imagine how their childhood will pan out - dreams of sewing ribbons onto ballet shoes, your son scoring goals or acting in shakespeare (or whatever) and if your dreams were of a little girls who would sit silently as you read to them, who would wear a beautiful uniform with shining plaits and go to a smart little school, then it's hard to let go of those dreams. But our children are not the figments of our imagination they were before we had them, they are flesh and blood, and sometimes very different to how we imagined them. They refuse ballet lessons, fail their exams, can't kick a ball, or need to go to a state school where you get a statement and a helper and where they are more likely to have some decent experience in dealing with SN. My mother dreams of my clever little boy getting a scholarship somewhere, and I have to explain that there is no way on earth he is going to sit an exam and do well unaided. He needs a different sort of education, as well as all our input at home.

One of the really trying things about having a child with autism who is also verbal and looks 'normal', is that if you every try to explain their condition, parents of NT kids say 'But all kids do that sometimes!' or 'I bet that's just because he's so clever he gets bored' or 'Yes, mine are exactly the same' or even 'sometimes I think you want there to be something wrong with him'. I don't bother now, even if someone actually asks me about it. I just say 'he's fine'.

I totally agree with Annh.
I'm very surprised to see you are still in the same quandry with the same issues.
I think now is the time to be brave and realise that these problems are not going to disappear or be resolved by this school. You need to get her assessed and move her to a suitable school.

re interrupting during stories - I know it is very annoying but she can't help it. I would sort of give up on the idea of reading 'to' her and start reading 'with' her. So ask lots of questions and go back and forward with her input. So when she says 'not a girl, a princess', say, 'OK, a princess...what's her name then? Princess Lucy?' or play 'spotting games' on the page 'Lucy, can you see Cinderella's cat in the picture'. It's just as valuable and fun, and reduces frustration and stops you having to punish her at bedtime, which is no fun for anyone, especially you!

agree with that, go with the flow. Don't stop reading to her, invent a new story together. Let her explore, don't try to punish her. Same with the games, invent new rules, invent new games.