My daughter in year 1 is being stubborn, non compliant and disruptive, what can I do ???

[mummyloveslucy]

Hi, my daughter is in year 1. She settled in really well, but recently she's being very lazy in class and quite stubborn. She does have moderate learning dificulties but I'm not using that as an excuse as she's capable of doing far more than she is.
The teacher told me that one day she'd taken 2 hours to coppy one line of writing. When she told her she'd have to stay in at break until she'd done another line, she did it within about 30 seconds.
Her teacher said that she dosn't seem to be doing it to be naughty, as she's always smiling and very polite but just isn't prepared to work hard.
Her P.E teacher said that she spent a lesson doing her own thing despite repeatedly being told to listen etc. She was also disrupting the other children.
I also find it quite hard at times at home getting her to either do as she's asked or even to join in a game and follow my rules. She seems to only want to do her own thing and dosn't like being told what to do. It's a nightmare! Even when I tell her a story, she interupts saying things like "No,a princess not a girl" I tell her if she keeps interupting I'll leave, she always does it again so I leave and she misses out.
I am always consistant with her but she dosn't seem to mind her punishments and dosn't really respond well to positive re-enforcement either.
I'm not sure what to do with her? We had a day out together today and she spent most of the day making stupid noises and just really trying to wind me up. it isn't fun to take her out at all.
Does anyone have any words of wisdome? I really feel I need to act now, as this behaviour won't get better on it's own.

She does have difficulty understanding, but when the teacher kept her in at break, she did the work within seconds which would prove she's having them on.

I know she can be stubborn, I like with her. She takes after her father.

I'm not saying it's all down to that.

That should be I LIVE with her.

asdx that's interesting. I'm hoping that the same will happen with ds (referral to EP via CDC). The community paed that saw ds a year ago queried Asperger's but was overruled by the consultant paed (who only reviewed the assessment and didn't meet ds). I spoke to the cons paed's secretary on Friday to see about referral to an Ed Psych and expect to be asked to an appointment with the cons paed for a fut assessment.

Ds went through a phase of soiling himself at at school (nearly all of the first term in yr 1). Have they found a reason with your dd?

With ds he had been ill that left him constipated and with fecal incontinence (so he didn't know that he had soiled, other than from the smell). Then he refused to use the school toilets. This was overcome with his teacher personally escorting him any time he needed to go and making sure the loo was immaculate before ds used it.

Lucy's soiling is due to constipation. She's had it most of her life, despite a really good diet. I'm seing the Dr tomorrow.

Alternatively, MLL, could it be that when all the other children were gone, and she only had her work to focus on, she was able to concentrate enough to do it?

Do you see? Give me any behaviour, and I could find a reason why she could be behaving like that because of SN. Not as a cop out, but because young children like to please, and like to be popular.

If a child doesn't want to, that means there is a more compelling force that is stopping them. Now, that can often be within their conscious control, and a NT child may choose not to because they are testing the boundary, think that if they push enough the teacher will just move on, etc.

However, a child that has sensory issues, or other SEN/SN, will not just have their work to keep their attention. First, they have to overcome the other obstacles that it brings.

For Lucy, perhaps the noise of the other children was disturbing her (some children can be disturbed by subtle background noise, even a bottom shifting on a chair, a pencil case being moved). Perhaps it is hard to control her pen/pencil. Perhaps it is difficult to understand, and once the teacher was with her 1:1, she understood.

It isn't as simple as "stubbor, non compliant and disruptive", or there would be no need for Ed Psychs.

I will Lougle. It's very hard to get a place at a good state school, but she can stay until a place becomes available. If I apply to several good ones I find, it shouldn't be too long.

MLL it might not be that she is stubborn, it could be that she doesn't see the point of what she is doing, it could be that she has sensory overload and couldn't do the work when the class was busy,it could be a whole host of reasons not just stubborness. My dd can be stubborn but her TA and her teacher know all the tricks to motivate her and they also consider any other possible reason for her non compliance before dismissing her as stubborn. Incidentally dd has never been punished in her school because for ASD punishment doesn't really solve or teach the child anything.

Please consider moving her MLL! I have followed Lucy's progress and your angst over school provision. You sound so lovely and caring but you have this blindspot where her current school is concerned! It does sound lovely, I agree, and I know you are concerned about bullying etc in a new school but please have a look around. Two hours sitting there having to copy a line of writing. Is that correct? Sounds awful, poor Lucy.

Wow Lougle, are you a teacher? If so where do you teach? We'll move house!!

I think you have it spot on. We suspect she has an auditory processing disorder which would account for her poor speech, understanding and so on. She appears to be hard of hearing, yet passes her hearing tests, so it's a possibility. The classroom noise could be putting her off.

Ds's apparent reason for refusing to do his school/home work is that he will just get more work to do if he does.

Remember that a 'good state school' for a child with SEN isn't often the same as a 'good state school' for a child with SN. All my friends send their children to an OFSTED outstanding primary school 2.5 miles from our village. We were confident that she was going to go there with 1:1 support. It was awful - They kept us waiting for 20 minutes in the foyer (tiny, and DD1 doesn't do enclosed spaces), they waved dismissively at the SEN rooms, they said 'you can leave her to play' when DD1 kicked a fuss about the play area, despite us having told them on the phone that DD1 needs constant supervision and 1:1 care, they just clearly had no idea about significant SNs. They'd had a few children with dyslexia and so on, and one with visual impairment, but no other significant SNs, and it was clear that they would not cope with DD, despite saying they would. They said that we had to get the best statement we could 'or they wouldn't be able to support her'.

The local school which had a mediocre reputation welcomed DD1 first, then us, changed the route around the school because DD1 saw something she wanted to look at, offered to look after her in a classroom while we looked around the rest of the school, and assigned her a buddy who had been at her preschool, so she knew her. They let her join in. At a later visit, the deputy head heard her screaming in the SENCO's office, and left her classroom to come and invite DD1 down to her class for milk and snack. They said 'don't worry what the statement says, get the best you can, but if she needs 1:1, she will get 1:1', and they assured us that they already had a child whose parent had resisted statementing, but clearly needed 1:1, so they were initiating SA and in the meantime giving full 1:1 out of their own budget. They scored 'good' on OFSTED.

I can tell you which school was outstanding for SNs

As it is, DD1 now goes to a Special school. 10 children in her class, with 4 teaching staff, plus often their are helpers. The site is secure and safe, so it reduces the need for 1:1, because any metal struts in the playground have padding, like softplay, doors have two handles, one high, one low, so she can't escape, etc.

I also think that because Lucy finds it hard to communicate, I have to rely on the school for telling me what's going on.
Lucy was apparently being picked on once and another child told me. It didn't seem to bother Lucy. When I asked her about it she just said "Oh yes, X is a meanie".
I suppose I could have some friends around after school to help her make friends and keep me informed.

Mollie so what are the school doing to sort it? My ds also ASD didn't do homework because as far as he is concerned home is home and school is school and so schoolwork shouldn't be done at home. He is 15 now and his school make provision for him to do the majority of it at school. He will now do some at home if it's emailed to him and he can email it back and so long as it's from lessons he enjoys. The stuff he doesn't enjoy is done at school with his TA.

No, not a teacher, just the mother of a very complicated darling girl who has complex SNs. I read, I learn, just like most of the posters on the SN board. I embrace it, because it isn't going to change. Her SNs are here, and they will always be, although I hope that having the right educational placement will give her the best chance for her future.

I'll just look for outstanding special needs support and hopefully a small quiet school, even if we have a fair drive there and back.

Dd's school did the same Lougle. She particularly liked buttons and switches so first port of call was the lift and the interactive whiteboard that rose up and down with the remote control.The head read her a story because she spotted a book that she has at home and I really got the impression that dd was being shown round and I was tagging along. I was offered a weeks trial with no obligation with the school funding the 1 to 1 support from their own budget if I decided not to take a place. Her statement covered it if I accepted Its a fantastic school in a deprived area. I drive past three other high demand schools to get there

You should be a teacher Lougle, I'm sure you could teach them a thing or two.

I have to go to work now, but thank you everyone for giving me your brilliant advice. I'll start looking at schools tomorrow and hopefully find somewhere caring and supportive that's able to meet her needs.

asdx ds is at the stage where he rarely does work anywhere either at home or at school, hence me turning into the pushy parent. The SENCO was happy to leave him until he stopped making progress as she considered him to be average for his age group (young in the year). I realised that we were in exactly the same place this year as last with little to show for it and I really don't want to still be there when ds gets to yr 3 next year.

I'm not sure that he has ASD (he's very empathetic and sociable) but there is clearly something going on with him that is affecting school (he is fine outside school but then of course gets to choose what activities he wants to do).

I have a meeting after half term with ds's SENCO and form teacher. During half term I have an appointment with our GP (who is also a paed registrar) and should hear back from the cons paed next week.

MollieO, there are lots of conditions which overlap, and can seem 'ASD', which needs to be unravelled.

Dyspraxia:

If dyspraxia is not identified, problems can persist and affect the childís life at school. Increasing frustration and lowering of self-esteem can result.

Children with dyspraxia may demonstrate some of these types of behaviour:

* Very high levels of motor activity, including feet swinging and tapping when seated, hand-clapping or twisting. Unable to stay still
* High levels of excitability, with a loud/shrill voice
* May be easily distressed and prone to temper tantrums
* May constantly bump into objects and fall over
* Hands flap when running
* Difficulty with pedalling a tricycle or similar toy
* Lack of any sense of danger (jumping from heights etc)
* Continued messy eating. May prefer to eat with their fingers, frequently spill drinks
* Avoidance of constructional toys, such as jigsaws or building blocks
* Poor fine motor skills. Difficulty in holding a pencil or using scissors. Drawings may appear immature
* Lack of imaginative play. May show little interest in ëdressing upí or in playing appropriately in a home corner or wendy house
* Limited creative play
* Isolation within the peer group. Rejected by peers, children may prefer adult company
* Laterality (left- or right-handedness) still not established
* Persistent language difficulties
* Sensitive to sensory stimulation, including high levels of noise, tactile defensiveness, wearing new clothes
* Limited response to verbal instruction. May be slow to respond and have problems with comprehension
* Limited concentration. Tasks are often left unfinished

By 7 years old

Problems may include:

* Difficulties in adapting to a structured school routine
* Difficulties in Physical Education lessons
* Slow at dressing. Unable to tie shoe laces
* Barely legible handwriting
* Immature drawing and copying skills
* Limited concentration and poor listening skills
* Literal use of language
* Inability to remember more than two or three instructions at once
* Slow completion of class work
* Continued high levels of motor activity
* Hand flapping or clapping when excited
* Tendency to become easily distressed and emotional
* Problems with co-ordinating a knife and fork
* Inability to form relationships with other children
* Sleeping difficulties, including wakefulness at night and nightmares
* Reporting of physical symptoms, such as migraine, headaches, feeling sick

Sensory Processing difficulties can also present as ASD - children can get overloaded by sensory information and 'shut down' or can lack the sensory information they need so 'hype up'.

Thanks Lougle. Based on this ds definitely doesn't have dyspraxia. I think that for whatever reason he is bored at school. He has visual sequential memory problems which were diagnosed by the school but not by the community paed (who saw him two months before his school assessment).

He is able to follow instructions, pay attention and focus when he is doing things that interest him, eg rugby, horse riding, Stagecoach, golf.

My ds is what I'd call typically autistic and then some. My dd though is entirely the opposite but still has autism so I think I have learned that there can be many presentations of autism even with the same gene pool and environment.The only way an ASD can be ruled out is with a proper assessment by a team of professionals,paed, SALT, child psych,OT at the very least and if ds's difficulties are either subtle or untypical then a specialist diagnostic service would be the best referral. Do you have a sympathetic GP or private healthcare? If so speak to the NAS helpline find the nearest specialist dervice and get a referral there.If it is an ASD ds will need ASD apropriate intervention to give him the best chance tbh.

that should be service obviously

But remember IME a bigger school was far better able to cope with my childrens needs than a smaller one. Far better.

You worry about class size but my DD has an hour every morning in a literacy group of 8 - where they are all working at exactly same level as her. No way can a small school provide 7 other children at the same level as Lucy. As well as an hour in a group of 8 she also does extra reading work 1:1 with a ta every day and she has a ta on her maths table. So all morning she is supported at 1:8 or better.

They have been equally outstanding with my asd son whose needs are very different. For example they have a lunchtime club for him to go to if he can't cope with the playground. Again these are things a small school often can't provide.

Looked at my BUPA cover (the top level apparently) but it doesn't cover learning or behavourial difficulties.

Ds's GP is absolutely fab (he is also a paed registrar). Ds was born prem and our GP has taken a special interest in his development. I know that he is happy to refer wherever is the best place for ds and knows all the relevant people. It is just getting the combination of GP and school stuff right. The SENCO was supposed to follow up with the CDC but didn't as ds was making progress (and I must say I have let things sit for the last few months in the hope that things would improve).

Dd's school is 2 form entry so pretty average sized but because of the high numbers of SEN because of their reputation it is generally a 1 to 6 adult child ratio.