My daughter in year 1 is being stubborn, non compliant and disruptive, what can I do ???

[mummyloveslucy]

Hi, my daughter is in year 1. She settled in really well, but recently she's being very lazy in class and quite stubborn. She does have moderate learning dificulties but I'm not using that as an excuse as she's capable of doing far more than she is.
The teacher told me that one day she'd taken 2 hours to coppy one line of writing. When she told her she'd have to stay in at break until she'd done another line, she did it within about 30 seconds.
Her teacher said that she dosn't seem to be doing it to be naughty, as she's always smiling and very polite but just isn't prepared to work hard.
Her P.E teacher said that she spent a lesson doing her own thing despite repeatedly being told to listen etc. She was also disrupting the other children.
I also find it quite hard at times at home getting her to either do as she's asked or even to join in a game and follow my rules. She seems to only want to do her own thing and dosn't like being told what to do. It's a nightmare! Even when I tell her a story, she interupts saying things like "No,a princess not a girl" I tell her if she keeps interupting I'll leave, she always does it again so I leave and she misses out.
I am always consistant with her but she dosn't seem to mind her punishments and dosn't really respond well to positive re-enforcement either.
I'm not sure what to do with her? We had a day out together today and she spent most of the day making stupid noises and just really trying to wind me up. it isn't fun to take her out at all.
Does anyone have any words of wisdome? I really feel I need to act now, as this behaviour won't get better on it's own.

Yes, I know. She has also started drawing pictures of her and her friends and although she's one of the tallest in the class, she always draws herself a lot smaller. It makes me think she is noticing. I'm a bit worried she'll think "I'll never catch up with them, so why bother to try?"

There was talk of her repeating a year and being taught with the class below.
When she first started in year 1, the teachers said how well she was doing and how glad they were that they didn't hold her back etc. Now I'm not so sure.

It sounds as if they don't have the experience/knowledge in how to meet her needs - move her to a different school - I doubt it will be get better - just because she's been there since nursery doesn't mean it is the right school for her.

Is she being assessed by the EP at the moment, or very soon?

Did the school arrange for the EP to assess her?

I don't see how a class with 30 children in it could be better for her than one with 13? Surely the teacher would have less time to spend with her even if her knowledge of SEN's was better? Also, you don't get chance to talk to the teacher every day in a state school, you have to make an appointment.
I like being able to settle her in and if needs be have a quick chat to her teacher every day. The school has such a friendly homely feel. I'm not sure I could find a state school like this.

I think the school could be great for her, if her needs are identified accurately and then met effectively.

IE The teacher will need training once the EP has made the assessment and given advice.

But, a teacher who had the knowledge and skills to meet her individual needs would be far better for her as her planning would take into account her needs, rather than just continuing to teach in the same way.

Not sure why you would need to talk to the teacher every day though? You don't need an appointment to speak to the teacher in a state school.

Her EP also says that she wouldn't get a statement of SEN's as she isn't bad enough, so she wouldn't even be entitled to any help from the TA.

Don't worry about that at the moment, just get them to assess what her needs are and give advice to the teacher as to how to meet them.

My three oldest children went to the local school because it was very academic and got good results. My two with autism went to schools that best met their needs. Ds went to a very small primary because of the small classes because he didn't find children and noise easy to cope with.Dd goes to a school in a deprived area because it has an outstanding reputation for SEN, lots of experience and lots of children with SEN so that dd has lots of peers.
Lots of what you write sounds pretty typical of a child with ASD tbh and if I were you I would be pressing for an autism specific assessment such as ADOS or DISCO. I'd also be looking for a state school and investigating a statutory Assessment to get dd the support she needs.
Don't under estimate the need for dd to have peers with a similar level of ability because I would worry that your dd will become increasingly isolated as the gap widens and it could harm her self esteem being in a school that has an emphasis on an area dd finds very difficult.

MLL- there was a thread v recently- "my 6yo hates us praising him" or something similar - maybe there's be some ideas on there about getting her to do things without praising?

I know you've been through a lot of heartache over schools' choice in the past, but maybe somewhere with a normal level of SEN would actually be a really positive place for her? Children in maintained schools with SEN (usually) have one-to-one and small group sessions where their needs are addressed, as well as lessons alongside all 30 children. I appreciate though SEN provision varies greatly around the country.

Good luck.

I do speek to her every day, only if it't to say "hello, has she had a good day?" or just to say she's in a bad mood today as she didn't sleep well etc.

I don't know if it's just our area then, as all the parents who have moved their children from the school have said they need an appointment to talk to the teacher.

My daughter does have an IEP and she is taught at her own level. She school day has been arranged to accomodate her needs.

I think you are getting confused between a Statement of SENs which I agree is very hard to come by and an IEP which is an Individual Education Plan. She should definitely have an IEP that would have been established after her EP assessment and done by the school SENCO.

I would expect the EP to have had a meeting with you, the SENCO and your dd's teacher to discuss best teaching strategies and this would be written up in the IEP. The IEP should be reviewed as often as needed, in ds's case this is every 3 to 6 months.

If none of this is happening then the school may well be meeting your needs (daily chats) but not your dd's. Not all private schools have poor SEN provision. Ours is very good albeit I've had to fight for an Ed Psych referral as the SENCO considers ds is making sufficient progress (I see ds making progress with absolutely no effort at all, which concerns me as I know that won't continue).

It may be worthwhile checking what the SEN provision is at other private schools as well as state.

Cross-posted. When was her IEP last reviewed?

You will find as she progresses through the school years that there is less parent/teacher contact and that is encouraged - dcs are expected to become more independent so you don't take them into the classroom. In yr 2 we now have a daily homework diary that the dcs use for homework and parents use for any messages, eg I've done a note in it when ds was tired after a busy weekend.

asdx2- You are probubly right. I think I so much want this to be the right school for her as I love it so much. It's everything I'd want in a school. I feel I can leave her there happily as she'll be well cared for, no one will pick on her and she normally has a good time.
I think if I'm honest with myself, I know she probubly feels like the odd one out and would benefit from a more mixed ability class. The girls tend to baby her a bit at the moment. (Which she likes)
I'd love to find a small quiet school with fairly small classes that give small group lesssons to children with SEN's. I'll keep looking I think.

They may not pick on her now but that doesnt mean they wont in the future or someone else joins who does.

We have chatted before on here MLL - Don't be fobbed off by the EP saying she is not bad enough for a statement. Your daughter and mine are very alike in their problems as I recall and interestingly DD is now starting down the process to be assessed for AS too. Her problems are becoming "clearer" as she gets older and her peers develop more so we see the differences, and we stop putting everything down to her being young or to her speech problems. We are heading onto the statement route though have been warned it will be a fight for DD to get one. We do not have a diagnosis in place yet but referrals have been made and EP coming into school etc after half term.
I am still thrilled with DD state school. The school are the ones behind us totally with applying for a statement - they can see she has needs even if not severe on the scale and they are helping us to fight for her to get the extra help and support she needs. Fortunately right now for us DD is enjoying the work - she will go out of her way to please people so if the teacher asks her to do something she will comply with a smile and do it because she believes the teacher is happy. I just hope for her this lasts because I can see if she loses that things are going to be very very different for her and academic progress is going to be an issue. Mind you, she can be very slow to do it! Distraction is a big issue for her.

Have you posted on the SN boards here? You will get a lot of advice about statements on there from people.

Hi, she is on an IEP, but I don't think the school have a SENCO. My daughters teacher has put the IEP together.
We had a meeting with the EP, my daughters teacher and the head of nursery and the EP wrote a list of things that should be done to help her and I think they are doing that.

MLL my dd has a statement and she got above the expected level in her SATs last year (level 3's)and her foundation profile scores were 8's and 9's. Now I know she isn't typical of a child to have a statement but the Ed Psych will tell you dd won't get a statement because they try and put you off applying to save the LEA money. In your case it's working doubly well because you are paying school fees as well and so costing nothing.
In dd's class in yr1 (she's now yr3) there were 24 children, 1 teacher, 1 TA, dd's TA and another child's TA so her class actually had a better ratio than your dd.
Try looking around all the schools that are doable and concentrate on how their SEN children fare. It may not be the outstanding or academic school but if it's good with SEN then you dd has a chance to achieve her best academically.

Hi MLL, I don't know any of your background, but to me, your DD's behaviour sounds quite normal.

My DD1, who is 6, bright, no SEN, has never wanted to play unless it's on her terms - if I teach her a game, she'll change it and insist I play her rules (while I grit my teeth and make as few comments as I can about how the game doesn't really work that way). I introduced two of her younger siblings to the idea of playing shop recently - we set out the things we were selling, one person was the cashier, the other two were customers... and DD1 was the owner of the shop next door. Which was in a bag so that she could come into "our" shop. And she sold magical horses. And she never really got into the game, just kept telling me "pretend I've just got back from holiday" - but wouldn't have a pretend conversation about it...

Hmm... what was I saying? Oh yes, she also loves contradicting. And she went through a stage of being blase about punishments - I think she had nothing that really mattered to her at the time. Is your DD happy? Is there anything she really enjoys? Maybe it's worth playing her way, accepting the contradictions and seeing where it goes?

Final point (and sorry for going on), DD2 is not enjoying Y1 either. "It's all writing, mummy." And she has four pieces of homework each night!

So was it last reviewed when she was in nursery?

I don't think she has ASD as she's very affectionate some times with strangers which isn't appropriate. She'll hugg shop keepers etc. We don't encourage this and it's hugely embarassing. Either that or she won't be at all interested. I think if I remember correctly, autistic children don't like physical contact or sociolising? I might be wrong. She loves to sociolise, she's just unsure of what's appropriate.

Well, reception is in the nursary building, so comes under the control of the head of nursary IYKWIM. She's now moved to another building for year 1.

So has it ever been reviewed since its inception?

MLL, we have been over and over this. You will never get your DD's needs met at that school. Never. I would bet my last penny on it.

It is a private school - they don't have funding for additional needs, and they don't have access to the same assessment process as at a state school.

A friend of mine had a DD at a small caring independent school. They realised that her DD had traits of ASD. Their recommendation to her was that their school was not the right school for her DD - NOT because they didn't care. NOT because they didn't want a child with SEN (the school is a Christian school, and would never turn a child away, even if the parents were unable to pay the fees, they work something out) BUT they simply couldn't reach her needs, and give her the time, the expertise, the help she needed.

That little girl now has an AS diagnosis, and is going through the statutory assessment process. She has gone from no 1:1 but small class size, with some concerns, to practically full 1:1 provided by the Mainstream school while they go through the Statutory assessment process. This is a child who was only flagged as having SN at age 6 - until then she flew under the radar and was just 'quirky'. Now, there is no question of her diagnosis.

As Lucy grows, her needs are going to increase, because they are not being met, and they are not being managed, and she is not progressing.

Every EP will tell you 'she isn't bad enough for a statement', every one. Because they are employed by the LA, and resources are scarce. It is not their job to decide which children get a Statutory Assessment. It is their job to assess the child's educational needs and learning styles, their difficulties and their strengths, and make educational recommendations to help staff at the school meet those needs and enhance those strengths.

If I am honest, reading this thread has made me so . Your darling daughter has spent years being criticised, maligned and faulted because she has SN.

Your DD has been at that school since she was 2, and they still can't meet her needs. It is a travesty and you need to be brave enough to take her out of the school, regardless of whether they can give you a cosy chat in the morning, and move her to a school that can actually meet her needs, recognise her strengths and help her to overcome her difficulties.

This is NOT Lucy's fault, she is NOT being stubborn, non-compliant and disruptive, she is a child who is being FAILED. She is responding in the only way she can to the problems she is having at school. She is crying out for someone to recognise it.

My DD1 went to a private preschool (ie. community preschool rather than school nursery) because that's what we have in our area. They did their best, they were caring and kind, they recognised her SN instantly, we didn't know, and they gave her 1:1 for all 15 hours per week that she was there. She needed it. But every day was problematic, she couldn't cope, they didn't really know what they were doing. People would visit and say "use transistion sticks" then leave them a lollipop stick, and they didn't have the first idea how to use it. So they didn't. Visual timetables, used once or twice, then they gave up. DD1 was "stubborn, non compliant and disruptive".

Now, she has started a SN school and is in Reception. Her home-school book reports only positive parts of her day. She digs vegetables from the allotment, plays with wet oats to meet sensory needs, goes to assembly and they work with her to help her cope, even though she hates sitting down.

Please don't allow your DD to go unsupported any longer. Be brave, pull her out, enrol her in a state school, and get her needs met. Otherwise, you will have a 15 year old who is "stubborn, non-compliant and disruptive" and will have to face the adult world, where the support is gone. You either get it now, or have big trouble later.