Starting C of E primary

[stellamylove]

My D, starting local school in Sept. It's quite holy, with daily prayers, a message board to god, hymns etc. As an atheist I'd rather she wasn't exposed to this kind if brainwashing, but I don't want to stigmatize her by asking she be excluded. Is there any mileage in canvassing other parents to see if they feel the same and trying to set up a group of kids who are spared it. Has anyone tried this?
Pleas don't suggest sending her to a different school. It's our nearest local village state school + all her mates from pre-school are going!

pernickety my point is that as the government use different methods to ascertain if a child is "disadvantaged" (using one measure a child may indeed be considered to be so and using another the same child will not ) it is impossible for you or me or the author to know the "facts"

I teach in a an 'ordinary' primary school. The RE we teach is frankly ridiculous. The kids get taught about so many different faiths they have no handle on any of them. Come Xmas and even the year 4's get confused about the xmas story. We'd be better off teaching them noting about religion and leaving it to the parents. (but then we kinda expect kids to be fed and washed before school every day but that seems to hard for some parents - I guess asking them to speak to their kids about religion might be a step too far)

My son goes to the local village school, which happens to be a C of E one. He has ASD and liked to practice 'hands together' a lot at home. He got mixed up with the 'Amen' and said 'Old Men' and then once, when we were at McDs he said loudly 'Thank you Mr God for these lovely chicken nuggets'

Nah, shouldn't be too worried about brainwashing...

Pixie "If you are saying that you wish only 'proven principles' to be taught in schools, then the curriculum is going to be very, very empty. Although I agree that schools should teach mainly Western beliefs about Science (evolution etc.) I think that it is impossible to seperate the religious from the scientific: both are simply stories handed down between generations. The discovery of atoms, for example, is just as mythical as the story of Jesus turning the tables in the temple. There is strong evidence to suggest that both happened, or exist - whether you believe that Jesus was the Son of God, or not - however, there is no actual 'proof' for either. Both are a choice of belief however, there is no argument that the latter should cease to be taught in schools"
this is a staggering staement form someone with a chemistry degree. It sounds more like something an evangelical bible thumper would come out with.
Scientific theories aren't stories handed down through the generarations. They are based on open, reproducable, validated research. They may change and develop as new information becomes available. They may even be discarded and replaced as we know more. This is in contrast to religious stories which were written centuries ago and handed down. They aren't really questioned by belivers and there's a requirement to suspend critical though to understand them

"the number of children from disadvantaged backrounds in faith schools is statistic, cally equal to the number of disadvantaged children in secular education."

Except that it isnt, if you use free school meals as an indicator. See table here for example (also the SEN one below it) What statistic were you using to measure disadvantage?

those stats are misleading though as "faith schools" includes voluntary aided (usually faith based admissions criteria for the majority of places) AND voluntary controlled (where the LA do admissions, using the same admissions criteria for community schools, usually LAC, SN, siblings, distance etc NOT faith-based criteria)

the stats here show the full story
Primary (2006/7 is latest stats I could find)
(% pupils known to be eligible for FSM)
average 16.9%
community 19.3%
foundation 11.4%
voluntary aided 13.4%
voluntary controlled 10.0%

secondary
average 14.4%
acadamies 33.8%
CTCs 13.7%
community 15.9%
foundation 10.4%
voluntary aided 12.6%
voluntary controlled 8.6%

so in both cases VA schools have a higher percentage of FSM eligibility than some types of school that don't select on faith

TBH I don't think either the originally quoted stats or these here prove anything other than you can easily slant the stats to suit your argument.

Pixie. I dont know the atom is there, but I trust the physicists who did the work, and if I had the time, talent + inclination I could repeat it. It's based on EVIDENCE. The beliefs coming from it are only valid while the evidence supports them

I think it's a myth that people draw their moral codes from the bible. They pick bits to suit whatever moral code they and the society they belong to already adopt.
If you're a homophobe, a racist, a misogenist who thinks women should be stoned for adultery you'll find bits of the bible to back you up.
Your morals are more innate + embedded in who you and your peer group are and you can find nice bits in the bible to back them up. It'd be a sorry state of affairs if you only refrained from killing or behaving in an antisocial way because the bible tells you to.

What really got to me when we were having our problems with the school was that the head didn't seem to understand that you could live as a decent human being, be nice to others, be honest, be charitable etc without calling that a "christian ethos". I am responsible for my actions and I cant find an excuse in a book if I do something unacceptable.

stellamylove Thu 26-Aug-10 19:09:44

Pixie. I dont know the atom is there, but I trust the physicists who did the work

I remember at university the group being asked the question "What is the difference between knowledge & belief
You believe in atoms stella and pixie believes in a god

It could be argued on a philosophical level that there isn't any real difference
you are willing to trust in a physicist/s you don't know whereas she's willing to trust in ...

Except that given suitable authorisation and kit, you could walk into a lab and prove that matter is made up of atoms (or at least, a small positively charged nucleus surrounded by a larger negatively charged area; whether you want to call that an atom is semantics rather than philosophy). You don't really have to believe when you can experiment.

And I'd say that world opinion on the existence and nature of atoms is a good bit more unified than that on the existence and nature of a god/gods.

jollyma, DH (of a vaguely religious bent) highly recommends this book on the subject, by a bishop no less... I haven't read it as yet, as I didn't feel I needed a book to tell me that you can be good without god (and it looks a trifle dull TBH)

TheHeathenOfSuburbia

but not so many years ago the world was unified in the belief that the world was created in 7 days ... just because the majority believe something does it make it a fact?

and how do you know that what you see in the laboratory is an atom? The scientist could be showing you anything really... you are taking it on trust because I don't imagine you've ever seen a single atom before ...

It's just easier for us to accept

"The scientist could be showing you anything really... "

Well, no, that would all get far too philosophical! because I have done this stuff myself, as part of the ball-achingly tedious physical chemistry I had to do for my degree... (I found it extremely hard to care where the electron was, or how it had got there. Or where it was going afterwards.)

The point is, Pixie that the evidence points to there being atoms. Lots of scientists in different places can repeat it. If new evidence arises suggesting that theory was wrong then we take that on board and change our view. This way of doing things is diametrically opposed to the switching off of critical thought required for religious belief.

Anyway. I didnt start this post to have an argument with chistians about science. It's always going to be a futile exercise because "belief" and reason dont get on. I'm my own worst enemy, always start talking to the jehovas witnesses when they come round.

Have you decided what you are going to do Stellamylove? Could you ask the school what their arrangements are for children who opt out?

You can get bogged down in the philsophy of how-do-we-know-anything, shadows-on-the-wall-of-the-cave and all of that, but at some point you have to accept that if all available evidence points to X, then it's wise to file X under 'fact'.

Otherwise you'd end up not believing in World War II, Madagascar, or your own feet, and staying in bed all day hiding under a duvet which may or may not exist.

And we've kind of wandered away from the question of faith schools.

TheHeathenOfSuburbia the point is Christians may also believe that the same argument applies you may not believe god exists I may not believe god exists but neither of us could prove that conclusively

TheHeathenOfSuburbia as to WWII there are certainly holocaust deniers

I'm an atheist teacher in a faith school.

We do teach the beliefs and principles of many other religions, essential if we are to live peacefully in a multi-faith society.
But there is a very strong Christian bias. I don't agree with it at all and if I am talking about religion I always phrase it in an impartial way i.e. "Christians believe..." rather than state something as fact. That's not to say that others don't though. I think the religosity of a school really depends on the religiosity of the teachers. In our school, there are a number of devout Christians aswell as a fair number of atheists.

Assemblies or "acts of worship" are very Christian. Children recite prayers, blessings and sing a few hymns. Bible stories are told as actual accounts rather than metaphors. Interestingly, the more gruesome Bible stories are neglected to be shared....

I don't see what a "Christian ethos" can bring to a school that a "secualr ethos" can't. As Christohper Hitchens once said, "Tell me a moral action or behaviour that a Christian can do that a non-Christian can't. Now tell me an immoral action that a Christian can do that a non-Christian can't. I bet you have thought of one already."

I'm not saying don't teach religion in school, but why do we have faith schools if they don't bring anything extra to the table than a secular school?

I have noticed that the families led by genuinely christian parents (as opposed to the ones who live outside the village and fibbed to get in) attend church regularly, take their children to sunday school and pray at bedtime. These children are being raised in a christian environment at home and are being taught how to be christians by their parents.

Provided every school teaches children to respect each other etc I genuinely do not understand why God and the church needs to be part of state education. I am hoping to move before baby ds2 starts school as I do not think I could cope with another 7 years of it and I am not prepared to drive 30 minutes for a school run to the closest non-faith school.

pernickety; I think I'll just see how it goes at first. I'm really not keen to withdraw her in isolation from her friends. I expect I'll just have to provide balance/explanation from home, like my parents did before me. I will resent havng to unpick crap taught at a state school. It'll feel as if they've decided to teach her an alternative imaginary alphabet which she can use if she feels like.

"I hope you'll be going for the 'some people think that. . .' route rather than 'whatever has been said just isn't true'?"

Of course Pixie. I'm an atheist. It's a shame the school won't be portraying belief in the supernatural in the same non-absolutist light