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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Starting C of E primary

200 replies

stellamylove · 31/07/2010 21:33

My D, starting local school in Sept. It's quite holy, with daily prayers, a message board to god, hymns etc. As an atheist I'd rather she wasn't exposed to this kind if brainwashing, but I don't want to stigmatize her by asking she be excluded. Is there any mileage in canvassing other parents to see if they feel the same and trying to set up a group of kids who are spared it. Has anyone tried this?
Pleas don't suggest sending her to a different school. It's our nearest local village state school + all her mates from pre-school are going!

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mrz · 25/08/2010 15:24

It's more normal for a religion to be studied over half a term.

pernickety · 25/08/2010 15:28

Pixieonaleaf - I believe many posters have given very valid arguments for secular-state schools. Are your ears completely closed to them. Do you have any valid argument in support of state-funded faith schools? Is the education of non-christian children of any concern to you?

Article spotted today:

It is not ?intolerant? to dispute the powers and the profusion of ?faith? schools

mrz · 25/08/2010 15:38

or even [[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/school-re-classes-are-failing-to-teach-children-about-christianity-1992690.html
School RE classes are failing to teach children about Christianity]]

PixieOnaLeaf · 25/08/2010 16:11

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TheHeathenOfSuburbia · 25/08/2010 16:22

I thought that faith schools' RE was not subject to OFSTED inspection?

So really, we can speculate all day about how varied an education they give, but there's no way of knowing except on a anecdotal basis.

I know my own primary and secondary schools taught nothing but straight (CofE) Christianity, without so much as a disclaimer that 'other religions are available', but obviously that was some time ago...

Mrsz, your links about ofsted criticisms of RE (Telegraph and Indie) are complaining that they are teaching eg the moral point of a parable, but not its religious significance. That seems eminently appropriate to me, particularly in primary school.
I notice the Indie goes on to say, "Some local authorities failed to include non-religious beliefs altogether, despite clear guidelines."

mrz · 25/08/2010 16:45

sorry TheHeathenOfSuburbia but faith schools are subject to Ofsted

PixieOnaLeaf · 25/08/2010 16:47

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mrz · 25/08/2010 17:15

TheHeathenOfSuburbia that is exactly what I've been saying since I joined this thread ... there is no "plot" to "brainwash" small children to become members of the Anglican faith(CofE) by schools.

TheHeathenOfSuburbia · 25/08/2010 17:31

...mrsz, but those ofsted complaints did not cover faith schools, it says at the start of the article.

TheHeathenOfSuburbia · 25/08/2010 17:34

The 'faith schools RE outside Ofsted remit' thing was from Richard Dawkins quoted here; www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7951358/Richard-Dawkins-faith-schools-should-not-be-allowed-to-opt-out-of-religious-education.html

I accept he's biased, but I'd be surprised if he's got his facts wrong.

mrz · 25/08/2010 17:36

As a number of posters have said already in this thread there isn't a great deal of difference between most CofE and non faith primary schools but I don't suppose you will believe that...

mrz · 25/08/2010 17:39

except Religious education guidance in English schools is Non-statutory guidance so no school has to follow it faith or otherwise

TheHeathenOfSuburbia · 25/08/2010 17:40

Sorry, pixie, somehow managed to miss your huge last post...

"the number of children from disadvantaged backrounds in faith schools is statistically equal to the number of disadvantaged children in secular education."

Except that it isnt, if you use free school meals as an indicator. See table here for example (also the SEN one below it) What statistic were you using to measure disadvantage?

PixieOnaLeaf · 25/08/2010 17:40

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PixieOnaLeaf · 25/08/2010 17:47

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mrz · 25/08/2010 17:51

There are a huge number of methods used by the government to measure "disadvantage". Our school comes under one measure while the attached CC comes under a completely different measure.
However as someone who teaches in a school in an area designated by the government to be socially and economically deprived using the free school meals measure would mean our children aren't "disadvantage" as most parents don't take up the option.

stellamylove · 25/08/2010 18:26

Pixie"If schools select only children who already have Christian beliefs, how can they aim to brainwash children?" children don't already have religious beliefs. Their parents may.
You finding it impossible to separate the religious from the scientific I think says more about your understanding of science than anything else..
Mrz your citations of schools failing to teach RE properly and, dropping christian assemblies and worship I think is immensly encouraging and shows how the world is moving on. It make schools like my local one seem increasingly anachronistic and stuck.

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PixieOnaLeaf · 25/08/2010 18:32

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mrz · 25/08/2010 18:36

stellamylove you may find that your local school works in a similar ways to those schools in the reports, as many people have said on this thread, don't judge until you see for yourself

TheHeathenOfSuburbia · 25/08/2010 18:57

I didn't fail to notice the Muslim statistic, pixie, i ignored it as it didn't fit my hypothesis Grin. Seriously, though, that will be a v small no. of schools in comparison to the Christian vs non-faith categories...

(apologies to mrz by the way, who I have been calling mrsz for pages!)

PixieOnaLeaf · 25/08/2010 19:11

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pernickety · 26/08/2010 07:21

Mrz - those articles are referring to non-faith schools so does nothing to prove the religious proselytising in C of E schools is benign. In my local area it is clear from the schools' website that some C of E and catholic schools have proselytising at the forefront of everything they do at that school.

pixieonaleaf "A very recent survey has also concluded that Muslim families are much more likely to allow their children to be educated in Christian faith schools since they trust the education more than they do the education given in secular establishments."

Well, muslim families appear higher up in the priority admissions form than non-faith parents, so they are merely exercising their right to use the school that may have the best results in the area - and the best results come about due to that skewed, prioritising intake! And the muslim families tend to opt their children out of religious worship and assemblies.

mrz "However as someone who teaches in a school in an area designated by the government to be socially and economically deprived using the free school meals measure would mean our children aren't "disadvantage" as most parents don't take up the option." But that would be true of non-faith schools too so it does not alter that there are fewer disadvantaged children in nationwide selective faith schools.

pixieonaleaf "I don't believe that all schools should be faith schools. However, I do believe that in a democratic country, I should be able to choose, without paying for the privilege, for my children to have a Christian education. You are arguing that you want your children to be educated in a secular school, yes? So why should it be that you are allowed to educate your children in the manner you see fit and I shouldn't? Because you are able to opt your children out of acts of worship but if there are no acts of worship, I cannot opt mine in."

But there are many things ALL parents would like to see in state schools that they don't get to opt their child into. I would like my daughter's school to teach philosophy and critical thinking but it doesn't and I don't feel like I have had any rights removed from me. What you term rights are actually preferences. I am interested in what is fair and what is best for ALL children. I couldn't care less about other parents' preferences. There is no right for parents for the tax payer to fund the indocrination of one religion in schools.

Is that what you would like? Because how would that work? What would that look like? The amount, type and placement of all the faith schools in the country does not match up with those who actually have a certain faith. I know of evangelical christians who have no hope of their child using the C of E school in the next village because they do not attend the parish church affiliated with the school. I know of whole towns that do not have a C of E or catholic secondary school even though the town has catholics and christians (not to mention all the other religions that are unrepresented)

My town has all of its faith schools concentrated on one side of town, so christian children have to travel or else, what actually happens, the streets that house the schools have very high house prices as parents strive to live as on top of the school as possible in order to secure a place. The non christians who live in that half of town have little hope of getting into those schools local to them and then they have to travel across town. It doesn't make for a very community spirited town. It's all rather unfair and devisive for a lot of people. I cannot understand how anyone could support that system with a good conscience.

The only FAIR system, for everyone, is secular schools. People of faith do not need to fear secular schools; secular does not mean anti-religious. No-one is going to preach anti-religion to your child. Secular schools are neutral and work very well in other western countries.

pernickety · 26/08/2010 07:21

schools' websites even.