Starting C of E primary

[stellamylove]

My D, starting local school in Sept. It's quite holy, with daily prayers, a message board to god, hymns etc. As an atheist I'd rather she wasn't exposed to this kind if brainwashing, but I don't want to stigmatize her by asking she be excluded. Is there any mileage in canvassing other parents to see if they feel the same and trying to set up a group of kids who are spared it. Has anyone tried this?
Pleas don't suggest sending her to a different school. It's our nearest local village state school + all her mates from pre-school are going!

Oh an YY to head

Last Head- great bloke, managed to combine school ethos (established in about 1650) with caring liberal faith and a massive grin; new Head cancelled reading classes for SEN kids because she wanted extra worship, and refuses any funding or time for SN kids as it's all tied up in the 3 sessions of worship a week they do in addition assembly and RE (DS2's dyslexia support withdrawn on time grounds, and the SENCO's request for £30 equipment for ASD kids reportedly refused as spent on candles)

I understand your concerns, but I can assure you, having experienced both type of primaries, that in reality there isn't a huge difference between the two (community and CoE).

Harvest Festival is celebrated in most community schools and so are all other religious type celebrations such as the Nativity Play etc

There was a big thing when my DD started about the school taking the children to church every week, but my DD ended up going about once in a term. Funnily enough, the nativity play at the old school was "Christmas with the aliens" and so was at the CoE school. I think they make a big deal about trying to be inclusive.

Prayers didn't have the word God in it.

It's worth giving it a go and see how it pans out before you make a big fuss. Like the others said, you might find a community church with a faithy head might make the school almost as religious!

See how you feel before you go in all guns blazing would be my advice...

SanctiMoanyArse
You are in Wales? The Welsh curriculum must be very different from the English one. My DC are/have been to the local C of E; which is quite Christian and openly suggests people look elsewhere if they can't cope with that. However they all study Islam( with usually a Muslim member of staff helping), Judaism (with usually a Jewish parent helping), and Hinduism (with visits from outside and a visit to a Temple) as well as Christianity.
It probably helps that the Headmaster and Chair of Governors are from different parts of the Christian spectrum.

Yes kids do post prayers in a box sometimes, other times its jokes or thank yous. Most assemblies have a Christian theme, but sometimes its pretty subtle (such as thinking about a time you had to say sorry). And most atheist parents wouldn't be interested in campaigning against the status quo.

Ha-ha - Christmas with the Aliens. My dd did that one as well! Script must have been posted on TES or something

Yes, my old community school goes to Church one a term for something like the nativity play or harvest festival. And they don't even inform you in advance, so that if you did object to your child attending church you could ask for them to be removed.

This is the thing that annoys me. I had no idea my child would be going to church. I would have expected a permission slip or something. There are various parents without much English or experience of the English school system who would definitely not want their child to go to church - but they aren't informed, or asked their permission, and don't realize their kid went till too late - or if at all. If you child doesn't come home and say, you may never find out. This is what is shocking in the English school system. That they need my permission to take my child to anywhere else - but not to church?

My new community school, which is far more multi faith doesn't take the kids to church though...

Yes - they assumed.

But they never publicize that you need to ask to be removed from acts of worship. Most parents who are not familiar with the English school system do not realize that their children are praying - let alone that they need to ask for them be removed. I think they should explicitly tell parents this.

It's a big assumption. A Muslim (for example) may not want to make a fuss about their child closing their eyes and mumbling something without the word God in an assembly - but may totally object to them entering a church.

I'm very literate and English is my first language and I had no idea this was happening when my children were in Reception and Nursery. I was genuinely shocked that my child was going to be in a nativity play and I wasn't consulted. We are not Christian or Atheists. It just never ever occurred to me that English schools weren't secular.

Indigo. Yes this is my point. I find it staggering that in this day and age that schools feel it's fine to impose religion on small childeren without a second thought.
I shouldn't have to make a fuss + deliberately "withdraw my child from worship" there should be an easy opt out alternative for kids of othrr religions or none.

There is an easy opt out - but school doesn't tell you about it - so therefore it's not easy. It's only available to people who know the system.

Impose Atheism? You have no idea what I do in my house.

In my community school a vicar comes in once a month and gives a sermon to the kids. Everyone would be up in arms if someone from a different religion gave a sermon - so why is it OK for a vicar to give a sermon?

The reason it's OK is because England is not a secular country. Why England is not a secular country I don't know....

What do I want to happen? I want a community school to not assume that everyone is happy for their child to pray and to be taught Christianity. I don't want them to listen to a sermon. I want them to go to a secular school. But this isn't an option in England.

However, I'm far more concerned with the fact that they're failing to teach my children to read and write to spend any time worrying about this.

OMG- now I really have seen/read it all

Someone once said "It's far easier to fight for your principles than live up to them"

OP- take note.

You can't really impose atheism. It's an absence of a belief in a god. Childeren are born atheists and usually assume the beliefs of their parents or school. Theism has to be learned or taught.

IndigoBell the law states

All maintained schools must provide daily collective worship for all registered pupils (apart from those who have been withdrawn from this by their parents). This is may be provided within daily assembly but the distinction should be made clear.

The head teacher is responsible for arranging the daily collective worship after consulting with the governing body. Daily collective worship must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character. The precise nature will depend on the family background, ages and abilities of the pupils. It is acceptable for schools to split the collective worship sessions over the school year to be 51 per cent Christian and 49 per cent other faiths or interests.

Most schools should be able to include all pupils in their act of collective worship. There may be exceptional cases, however, where, in view of the family background of some or all pupils, the head teacher and governing body feel that a broadly Christian act of worship is not suitable. In these circumstances, the head teacher can apply to the local Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education (SACRE) to have the Christian content requirement lifted. Before doing so, the governing body should consult the parents of pupils at the school. Collective worship can take place at any time in the school day and the whole school does not need to get together at the same time. Collective worship can be organised into form groups or year groups or whatever is appropriate for the school. It cannot be organised in faith groups unless a determination has been sought and granted by the local SACRE.

Pixie - I wouldn't mind at all if my kids got sermons from a variety of faiths - it's the fact they only get them from one faith that annoys me. It's the fact that the teachers talk to them about God without qualifying that they mean the Christian definition / version of God...

Sounds like I would get on much better at your school than mine....

I didn't actually realize that independent schools could be secular either. You learn something every day...

(Not that independent is an option for my)

Useful info mrz.
So it sounds like there would need to be a fairly large and vociferous group of parents plus a sympathetic head to effect any significant change. I suspect our school will lack both

Headteacher is told establishing non-religious education would be 'politically impossible'

I am rather gobsmacked that you are sending your dd to a c of e primary and think you might be able to persuade other parents and the head to remove the religious part of it or have I misunderstood what you want to do.

Mrz - that article is very interesting and very sad.

Is there any other part of England, besides it's schools, which aren't secular? Why is education subject to this? Very weird...

Well universities are secular, so your dd will be fine there!

Hi Pixie. I'm not planning to do anything at the moment. I'm just unhappy about the status quo and I wanted to test the water to see if anyone had found an effective way to challenge it. It sounds as if the system is fairly stiched up and it would need some kind of top down government intervention to break this unhealthy + undemocratic alliance between church + education. I doubt any politician would have the balls to take this on, mind.

There is the small matter of Christianity (rightly or wrongly) being the established (i.e. state) religion in England...so it's not just education.

I think if you decide to use a church school you have to accept that there will be a degree of religion involved. If the school is CoE or RC that religion is going to be Christianity and it is frankly naive to think otherwise. You do have the right to withdraw your child ...

We do live in a CofE state though - the connection between church and crown is well documented and complicated.

I dont really see the problem myself and I speak as someone who would align themselves on the borders of Quaker/no religion.

My ds goes to a school which isnt CofE but calls itself a christian school and yet there are only 4 white europeans in his class with that background - all of the other parents dont seem to mind knowing full well that their home religion is strong enough to take a bit of prayer and hymns and nativity.

When my ds came home and asked if god was real I just said what I thought and said he had to make his own mind up and that will be a continuing process I assume. I see it more like Father Christmas and magic - he doesnt believe in them either but I dont mind him learnign the bible stories and parables etc - that is very much part of the British culture and should be taught.

[shrugs]