Starting C of E primary

[stellamylove]

My D, starting local school in Sept. It's quite holy, with daily prayers, a message board to god, hymns etc. As an atheist I'd rather she wasn't exposed to this kind if brainwashing, but I don't want to stigmatize her by asking she be excluded. Is there any mileage in canvassing other parents to see if they feel the same and trying to set up a group of kids who are spared it. Has anyone tried this?
Pleas don't suggest sending her to a different school. It's our nearest local village state school + all her mates from pre-school are going!

No. C of E primary schools don't teach religion in a detached academic way. I agree religion is an important subject to know about. It underpins any understanding of politics, geology, history, sociology. It's interesting in a anthropological or psychological way too. Trying to understand why we're programmed to belive in the supernatural + why cultures all over the world seem to develop some kind of religious belief. All this is fascinating.
C of E schools however teach a christian-based world view and teach unambiguously that christian beliefs represent some kind of "truth", There may be a token element of other and non-religions but this doesn't compete with a daily christian input

Pixie your points are self-contradictory. You keep stressing how important it is that kids make their own choice about religion and that I, by objecting to christianity in schools am limiting this. That makes no sense when you're advocating a system that only teaches one religion. How is that enabling my kids to make their own choices?

Sorry but the reason many ethnic minority families choose faith schools is for the ethos secure in the knowledge that no one will try to convert their child to Christianity.

But church schools don't "only teach one religion"! My RE plan for this year is
Term 1 What can we learn from the life of Mohammed (PBUH)
Term 2 Christmas and Divali, celebrations of light
Term 3 Hindu beliefs and lifestyles
Term 4 Easter Celebrations
Term 5 Symbols in Worship
Term 6 What can we learn from people of faith today

Of these Easter is the only totally Christian topic, Terms 2, 5 and 6 incorporate Christianity and other religions and compare and contrast different beliefs and ideas. And this is the Agreed Syllabus from my Dioceses!

This is from my County's Diocese review

The revised syllabus retains and reinforces the central commitment to:

Present the essential of five world faiths and a fairly comprehensive overview of Christianity?

and endeavours to:

make possible the high regard due to every world faith whilst not diminishing that firm allegiance due to their own. Unless our children grow up with an informed respect for one another's faiths, the false and ridiculed stereotypes will persist and society in this country at every level will be increasingly divided.

I suspect that's anecdotal Mrz. They probably have little choice and are even less keen to rock the boat than non-minority families.
But anyway isn't one of the central tenets of christianity to spread the good word and bring people to jesus. If they aren't doing this, what's the point of them being a christian school, and in what sense are they one?

Erm, by reading the prospectus and the anglican yearly report on how well the school's promoting the christian vision, Pixie.
I also went to a C of E school and remember it well. Going to a mosque for a day is no form of balance compared to 6 or 7 years of daily christian worship, I dont mind if she goes to a church for one afternoon instead (like your son at his mosque!)

No stellamylove it isn't anecdotal it's based on a number of reports such as the research conducted by the runnymedetrust on School Choice among Black & Minority Ethnic parents in 2007.

I haven't had time to read the whole thread but i was in a similar position to op 3 years ago. The first term was extremely stressful and took a lot of discussion and disagreement w the head to come to an arrangement. This is largely as follows: my son will not be directly asked to pray but he will sit quietly and not disturb others (we decided not to withdraw as this was not setting him a good example of tolerance), he will attend school late on eucharist day once a term and help the ta during practice for this event, that staff would no longer ask children to cross themselves in assembly (but the vicar would continue to do so in school), the re syllabus would be discussed w me at the start of each term.

My main problem was how to send him in to school saying listen to your teacher and then disagree with the religious information when he bought it home. He couldn't possibly be expected to make this distinction aged 4 but now at 7 has a firm understanding of the difference between christian and other information.

My advice would be is dont try to fight other peoples battles for them. Make an appointment w the head and come to an agreement. If your concerns are dismissed dont give up. Of course providing you didn't fib on your admissions papers!

jollyma children "crossing themselves in assembly" ... "vicar would continue to" but vicar's and children don't normally cross themselves in the Anglican (CofE) church!

The reason that there is not a secular school system in this country is that there is too much antidisestablishmentarianism about!

(Sorry, but I've always wanted to put that word in a post!)

Being serious now, I went to a CofE school 50 years ago although my parents were completely atheist - in those days there simply wasn't any alternative as the nearest non CofE school was a two-mile walk followed by a half hour bus-ride away.

We had the local rector in to take assembly and teach RE every week - as far as I can remember there was no mention of other religions at all. We went to church every week during Lent and on Ascension Day (and then had the rest of that day off!)

Even with all this Christian input it was never difficult for me to understand that it was simply a belief, because that's what my parents taught me at home. Even the Christian mission which set up a tent in the school playing field every summer holidays, which I attended because all my friends did, didn't make me actually believe anything - I just found the games fun.

?pernickety you seem to be ignoring my question. Mrz ? I answered your question. Please let me know which question I did not answer.

Mrz ?and the fact that all maintained schools must provide daily collective worship for all registered pupils (apart from those who have been withdrawn from this by their parents). This is may be provided within daily assembly but the distinction should be made clear. The head teacher is responsible for arranging the daily collective worship after consulting with the governing body. Daily collective worship must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character.?

You missed out the following part of the guideline ?It is acceptable for schools to split the collective worship sessions over the school year to be 51 per cent Christian and 49 per cent other faiths or interests.?

I would argue for collective worship no longer being mandatory in schools anyway.

?So children who do not come from faith based backgrounds should remain ignorant about religion, should they? This seems particularly closed minded and restrictive.?

No, that is not my opinion at all, and I don?t believe I said that. I support the teaching of comparative religions and none (humanism) then all children are provided with the knowledge of all viewpoints should they wish to take up a religion, change their religion or leave their religion when they are old enough to make decisions for themselves.

?What if your child chooses to become Christian?? What does this have to do with schools? I assume she would approach a church in-line with her ethos and ask to join.

Pernickety 'Faith schools, however, do take away the rights of non-faith children if they are excluded from using their local school'

Pixieonaleaf ?They are not excluded from their local school. They are only excluded from religious education and that is of your choosing. ?

You keep saying this but current admissions policies mean that a child with no faith is given last priority to be admitted to the school that could be located on their street. And alternatively, there are children of faith who do not live anywhere near a state faith school that matches their denomination and they don?t manage to tap into the special privilege you and your family seem to enjoy.

Pixieonaleaf ?You should be glad that they get a free education. Many children do not. A lot of the posters on this thread whose children are getting an education sound very spoilt.?

Is that directed at me?! I don?t understand your point. Spoilt? Who? Where? Can you give an example? I could in turn say that faith school parents are very lucky to be getting a free education because if they lived in the US and wanted a faith-based education for their child, they would be dipping their hand in their pocket and having to go private. I do not know anyone?s child or any of the parents on here to label them spoilt!

I can understand you having a rabid protective attitude towards faith schools because you benefit directly from this policy. But I wonder if you are able to view education in this country objectively? Can you put yourself in the shoes of others? There are plenty of Christians who hold a more charitable view and do not agree with faith schools. What are you so afraid of losing if state-funded faith schools were eradicated.

Pixieonaleaf ?You also don't give children enough credit - even at four, they can choose whether they want to believe in God or not. And schools don't 'peddle' religion.?

Oh, but 4 year old children can?t and schools do. Even non-faith schools do. It happened to my daughter in my daughter?s school and has taken to about age 7, with me having to provide the alternative viewpoints, for her to start to not ascribe everything in the world to god?s doing. It was RE lessons, by a well-meaning Christian TA that stopped my daughter asking the big, interesting questions she was known for

This question

The alternative to opting out ?
All parents who choose to send their child to a church school because of religious beliefs having to opt in perhaps?

Mrsz - if state schools were secular, taught about all religions equally, and the 'daily act of Christian worship' law were removed, then there would be nothing to opt in or out of. Parents/churches could present their own view of the world on their own time.

And I do have to take issue with Pixieonaleaf's ?They are not excluded from their local school". Have you not read the admissions criteria for faith schools? My daughter is excluded from two of the three nearest state-funded schools to her, on the basis of my lack of religion.

Pixie; "The central tenet of Christianity is actually to 'spread the word" spreading the word to 4 year olds without any alternative or balance (and I dont count a couple of hours in a mosque) is brainwashing.

TheHeathenOfSuburbia as a teacher my experience of state schools is that they do teach about different faiths (admittedly in primary schools the focus is on the major faiths - Christianity - Islam - Sikhism - Hinduism - Judaism -[Buddhism ])in a balanced way.
As an agnostic I've yet to see a lesson or attend an assembly with content that made me feel uncomfortable or believe that children were being "converted".

Pixie; How on earth is it balanced when they have daily christian worship for 7 years and the offer of one afternood in a mosque?

stellamylove do you have any idea what is actually involved in the daily Christian worship? Obviously I can't speak for the school but neither can you until you experience it... normally it involves a story with a moral (not necessarily a religious story) sometimes a song (again may be a hymn but not always) followed by a short prayer lasting a few minutes at the most. I find the children in our school who's parents have strong feelings just don't join in (even the four year olds). The example of a visit to a mosque doesn't mean that is all the children will experience about Islam it would most likely be an introduction to the study or a conclusion in addition there would be weekly 1 hour lessons plus all the other religions studied during the year.

pixieonaleaf - "And, yes, I do see your behaviour as spoilt: you are offered a free education, which many people in the world are not offered and you choose to pick fault with it because it is not exactly as you wish. That, in my book, is spoilt behaviour."

I'm sorry that you feel that way. As someone who has opted out of state education, do you feel that way about everyone who uses state education? Because it is 'free', anyone who desires to improve it is acting in a spoilt manner? I don't see my motivations as being selfish at all and in fact, my child goes to a school that I am most happy with, so I campaign on behalf of other people's children who are affected by the very unfair current system of faith schools.

My child went to a non-faith school where she very much was encouraged to absorb the message that god exists and made part of the universe (she did not receive this message from any other part of her life). Whilst other religions and even humanism (for 1 week) were briefly covered, the overlying picture presented was one of a christian god being the real truth. This had nothing to do with the daily act of worship but taught as part of RE over the course of 2 years - to my impressionable 5/6 year old. No-one seemed to care quite what message the TA was churning out to these children. A fact that should worry everyone.