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Steiner Schools?

250 replies

Moomalicious · 23/10/2007 14:02

Does anyone have any experience with Steiner Waldorf kindergartens? My son is hating his preschool and I think this might be a better option for him but I'm an Atheist and am worried that may prejudice us.

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barking · 02/12/2007 21:28

northernrefugee39 been googling and found www.cultnews.com/?p=2176 and this:

The Forum is a large group awareness training developed out of its forerunner The Erhard Seminars Training [known as Est]. The creator of Est, Werner Erhard, studied many personal development traditions ranging from Buddhism to Scientology. He realised he could combine insights from several sources to develop a training, to be held under rigourous conditions and designed to induce in participants shifts towards fresh realisations about the way their life has functioned, and realisations about what it is possible for them to be. Such shifts are not readily obtainable in ordinary life because most people are too cocooned by self-comforting habits and ways of being; habits of avoidance, denial, defensiveness, and so on.

The 60-hour training was designed to be so compelling that it would need no marketing, apart from the enthusiasm of graduates - who would ensure a steady flow of clients. And so it has been. The Est training, which the writer experienced in the early 80s, was replaced by the Forum as a shorter and less rigourous version of Est [which had been criticised for being too tough]. The Forum, misleadingly called a seminar, is run worldwide by the Landmark Education Corporation of San Fransisco, headed by Werner Erhard's brother.

The basic ideas behind the Forum probably would be discoverable by a combination of introspection and careful reading. But the difference that really makes a difference - and this is what you get if you buy yourself a place in the Forum - is the powerful setting in which the training is delivered, and that will include having a trainer [referred to as the leader] of considerable ability and expertise. It is an exceptional experience to be part of what happens in a large group of any kind - but especially one like the Forum in which the participants share a common intent and goal. The various rules and boundaries that the Forum organisers set up and insist upon [how my fellow Est participants and I coped with those were deeply illuminating to witness] make for a uniquely super-charged atmosphere. Then there are the Forum's fundamental processes around which the training revolves, processes which have been carefully honed over the years, and still are being.

Most large group awareness trainings are psychological in character. But they are very far from the psychology and style of founding fathers such as Freud and Jung. The Forum is an extreme example of Constructivist Psychology in action. But it is not the polite Personal Construct Theory of George Kelly [the founder of Constructivist Psychology].

As a constructivist myself I appreciate the constructivism in the Forum and I also like that it seeks to have people disidentify from their problems. I see dis-identification as a key task in psychology and as the master life-skill [see Advaita in Psychotherapy]. The Forum is not psychotherapy, but it is something which may well be used by psychotherapy clients who could do with a more of a nudge than a psychotherapist would consider it appropriate to deliver.

Various books have been written about the experience of Est and several accounts of the Forum can be found. I would advise against reading any of these because they might reduce the impact of what you may gain as insights - and that would be to lose quite a bit of the point of the Forum.

Some people say that the training begins with one's first exposure to Landmark Education staff. Anglo-Saxons are unlikely to appreciate the strongly up-beat and pushy style of some of the Landmark sales team. Waverers can be given so persuasive a hard sell as to wipe out any chance of a sign-up. That is partly why Landmark Education has been described as an "intense enrolling environment" [see Safeguards when Dealing with Landmark]. It is worth not being put off by any pushiness: try seeing that as no more than something skilfully to be sidestepped without being shunted into irritation, or worse.

SAFEGUARDS AND RESERVATIONS

I am positive about the Forum, but reservedly so, because I do not know how efficient the screening process is that is meant to let in only the psychologically well. The Forum is powerful and it should not be taken by anyone whose mental health is anything but firmly balanced and well-established, nor by anyone who is not good at looking after themselves or managing strong peer pressure. If you have any doubt about its suitability for you then you should consult a mental health professional [see The Awareness Page FAQ].

If you are in psychotherapy, and your therapist approves of you doing the Forum, then you are unlikely to be unbalanced by the powerful techniques that the Forum uses - some participants would say that losing balance was exactly what they needed. Some maybe, but for the rest there are some issues, covered below, it would be sensible to think over.

If you take the Forum then some degree of ego-inflation is almost certain. For most non-narcissistic people this will be a short-lived matter, and it will be no problem if you have generous and understanding associates.
After the Forum your friends may experience you as obnoxiously accurate when you tell them how bits of their lives do not work properly, and as you spell out what they should do about it. Forum people tend to call this coaching.

If you feel that situations or people are limiting you, then after the Forum you may feel it would be simplest to discard them. I am sure the Forum does not intend such an escapist result.

Do not be mesmerised by the cost of the Forum - what are you worth? Concerning the richness of the organisation - that does not have to be relevant, unless you say so.

One of the main philosophic differences between psychotherapy and the Forum is that the meanings people give to things are dismissed by Forum people. That is more useful than you might think [see Advaita in Psychotherapy] but your non-Forum associates may not enjoy having their meanings dismissed by you - if you do that.

The Forum creates an in-group atmosphere partly by using certain jargony words [which they call a new use of language] to refer to its foundation principles. Thomas Leonard says of jargon that too often people seem to "become" these principles rather than simply applying and enjoying them [see The Top 10 Concepts]. Your associates are unlikely to enjoy having their ears bent with Forum-speak - unless they find it funny. It does sound bizarre out of context.

The Forum is the opening offer of Landmark Education. You will be expected to take other more expensive programmes, and you will be pressured to sign up before you leave.

There are many rigidities connected with the Forum, and Forum leaders are powerful authority figures. If you are likely to have problems with that then it would be sensible to suspend any dislike for the time being.

If you take the Forum you will hear many stories of seemingly intractable problems being resolved within hours of the end of the training. For an example known to me see Undoing Scapegoating, the section entitled An Impressive Undoing.

CharlieAndLolasMummy · 02/12/2007 21:32

I am an atheist but grew up in an anthroposophical family. My son was at a steiner kindergarten for a bit, then we withdrew him for various reasons.

TBH I wouldn't worry too much about the anthroposophy side. At 3-7, its pretty harmless stuff, its more that they have a lot of pagan/Germanic festivals (which are actually quite nice). The other thing to remember is that the majority of Steiner teachers AREN'T anthroposophists. They are quite often actually state trained, but wanted a more child-centred approach than they could find in a state system. Also, anthroposophists have pretty much no interest in recruitment, in fact in some ways that would be counter to anthroposophy. Its about personal growth (via reincarnation) and not interfering with anyone else's growth.

Incidentally, every steiner school that I know of is actually fairly academic at secondary. They do a normal spread of GCSEs/A levels, and their grades are typically above average. They promote late reading, but late reading doesn't mean no reading, it is just that they don't teach it til 7 (and then from what I have seem most kids pick it up very fast).

I do think that some schools can have a bit of a siege mentality. Also, they do require a lot of you in terms of fundraising and stuff-they have no choice really, but it can be a bit of a pta-fearer's nightmare. (think 8pm phone calls requiring urgent cake baking).

The chocolate/tv thing is snobbery IMO. I didn't come across anything like that at the steiner kindergarten my son was at-there were the normal Tescos cakes at birthday parties and I'd be suprised if any kid their didn't watch tv. The p&t group (not the kindergarten) was a bit dominated by mothers of pfbs though ;-).

It all depends massively on the school though. Every school is different. I think you need to go to your local kindergarten and have a look, and also take your son to the p&t group.

Bauble99 · 02/12/2007 21:34

As of September 2008, if recent press reports are to be believed, all pre-schools will have to follow the birth to five curriculum. How will this work with Steiner settings?

CharlieAndLolasMummy · 02/12/2007 21:35

what IS it with me and MN and the spelling of "there"?

"I'd be suprised if any kid their there didn't watch tv."

CharlieAndLolasMummy · 02/12/2007 21:36

bauble, thats interesting, can you link to something there?

Am in Wales so this probably doesn't affect us, but would like to see. Are private schools not exempt then?

northernrefugee39 · 02/12/2007 21:37

Whooaaah- thanks barking. And you say the people at your steiner set up were doing this? I would have thought they had enough with their anthroposophical knowledge...
this is a great thread- I'm going to go and check my just turned 13 yr old isn't still reading 'cos she's tired and I hadn't realised the time.
Maybe carry on tommorrow if any one else picks it up! Night night..

Bauble99 · 02/12/2007 21:37

C&L. Will try to find link but it was in The Times, Mail etc last Thursday. Private nurseries, whatever their ethos, are not exempt anymore.

Bauble99 · 02/12/2007 21:42

Have a look at the 'in the news' board here. If you look at the thread about 'National Curriculum for under fives' there's a link in the OP.

How long-winded was that?

Can't do links. Yet...

barking · 02/12/2007 21:43

CharlieandLolasMummy - yes the steiner toddler group we first went to was lovely, so lovely we moved area to one that taught long term up to age 16 which was where it all went pete tong.

I haven't been on here for a while, can I ask what a pfbs is?

northernrefugee39 · 02/12/2007 21:47

there's another thread going on this birth to five curriculum- Steiner schools are private- if they had to follow the nat curric there wouldn't be this discussion. The core of the Steiner curriculum is anthroposophy.

I really don't agree Charlieandlolas- the whole point is that the teachers are all trained in anthroposophy even tho they don't teach it.
I know that in anthro circles thre's rumblings about whether to be more worldly, open etc.
But you can't deny the fact that the curriculum at Steiner is rigidly and doggedly the same everywhere- they don't suddenly say- lets do the arthurian legends instead of the nordic myths do they? That's because Steiner meant the curriculum to reflect the incarnating child's progress- so he would recognise various epochs from his previous incarnations.

I REALLY think that alot of people who have been through Steiner school haven't got a clue about the anthro aspects- and alot of Steiner's stuff is very rambling and compltely off the wall, so people just carry on without questioning.

northernrefugee39 · 02/12/2007 21:54

Charlieandlolas- the staff may be quite often state trained- but then they have to do the Steiner training too- their reading matter has loads about anthroposophy. The festivals aren't really pagan- they may seem like that - they're all anthroposophical- the advent spiral for instance- all about marking the earth's transition from the atlantan era to the ayran one. The things about the sun etc are about their idea of christ- who anthros beleive was a sun god.

barking · 02/12/2007 22:04

Northernrefugee39 - there was an anthroposophy study group at the school, though this was by invitation only from the teacher if they felt you had a real commitment to the school and an authentic interest in anthroposophy etc.
I didn't get invited, infact the whole steiner thing made me realise what an introvert I am.
so many hoops.....

northernrefugee39 · 02/12/2007 22:04

It would be interesting to have someone come on the thread who has a good argument for Steiner schools and anthroposophy- I mean with all the bits about reincarnation spiritual science etc .
I do think the schools are desperate to recruit more people- the whole idea is that the anthros want to prepare the childrens spirits and souls for the earth's transition to the next epoch.
Also- although the organisations related to anthroposophy are unbelieveably wealthy- there is an obsession with fundraising.

barking · 02/12/2007 22:08

hey I thought you were off to bed? thats what steiner does to you, once it gets under your skin the weirdness never leaves

northernrefugee39 · 02/12/2007 22:08

mind you- on second thoughts- true anthros don't really like computers 'cos ahriman- the sprit of darkness is talking to us through them- so it's unlikely .
Barking- there are anthroposophical groups at the school and Camphill where we were- also there is one quite near in someone's house of an unlikely group of people who I had no idea knew each other- but they all meet and discuss anthro stuff- furtively too- weirder than the masons.... uggghhh..it really gives me the creeps

northernrefugee39 · 02/12/2007 22:10

yep- I'm going now.... daughter's all asleep, husband eating chick pea dahl- don't ask- he missed out on roast at lunch and is feeling all peeved and pathetic.

barking · 02/12/2007 22:13

oh god i can't cope when a steiner person comes on these threads, they really think they are right - too much of a superiority complex!

northernrefugee39 · 03/12/2007 07:27

I think they beleive they're right because they don't realise the anthroposophical agenda is at the centre of Steiner Schools.I'd love it if a Steiner person came on and spoke openly about anthroposophy and what they feel. They're never open- and the only Steiner speak on here seems to be from people who have been through the system without a clue about about the core of Steiner doctrines. Which is fine- if people are happy with that- that's their look out- it's just others who aren't happy with not having been told anything about anthroposophy when they show an interest in Steiner schools.

CoteDAzur · 03/12/2007 09:45

Hard to compare Freemasonry and Steiner schools. Both are esoteric groups, but the similarity ends there. Especially since Freemasons are adults who go in of their own volition and can leave if they so wish, and 3 year olds sent to Steiner kindergartens by their parents who know nothing of the Anthroposophy connection cannot make these decisions for themselves.

at charlieandlolasmum's "at 3-7 it's pretty harmless stuff. It is indoctrination, pure and simple. One thing if the parent is a willing party to this indoctrination, but to keep parents in the dark and go at the children is borderline criminal imo.

I was told that "children start the day by saying poems". Would you take this to mean they say the same prayer about the spirit of God and "the soul that lives within" them every single day? I thought they came to school and recited a poem they wrote or they heard and liked. And that is exactly what they wanted me to believe at the application stage.

northernrefugee39 · 03/12/2007 15:00

Cote- I wasn't really COMPARING masons and anthroposophists- they both give me a similar feeling of weird creepiness in their lack of openness/ secrecy- unwillingness to be scrutinised. You're right tho'- a poor analogy.
So-are you going to say anything to the Steiner school? When I began questioning their core and ideas they got really shifty and didn't answer anything in a straight way. I'd be interested to know how the French reply to qestions about it.
My feeling is, more and more actually, that there are only a few key players at the top of each organisation - be it biodynamic farming, Camphill communities or Steiner schools, who are aware of the full agenda.
It is after all a self named estoteric society- so only the priviliged few are able to have the full knowlege/ be on the spiritual path etc.

northernrefugee39 · 03/12/2007 15:07

Charlieandlola- to go back to the thing about Steiner kids being typically above average at exams/secondary.- this is the line that is pushed- and in a majority of casesI think it's true- Steiner schools are private schools, they have small classes and avery committed parent/s- you have to be as the kids don't go full days until 9 or 10- and you're expected to do a great deal of tasks like gardening, cleaning, fundraising. Therefore the kids come from a generally middle class committed, with a bit of money as they are fee paying- one would expect them to do better than say an inner city school.
Also- they're generally behind in science- Steiner's science teaching is dodgy- the heart isn't a pump, colour theory from Goethe, man not descended from animals, bizarre evolution theory etc etc.
Steiner also don't recognise special needs as this is seen as karma or

northernrefugee39 · 03/12/2007 15:09

an incarnation problem- so there are alot of say dislexic kids who aren't helped - and they really don't learn to read or write and really struggle. Often there are quite alot of these kids at Steiner because they're not getting along well in mainstream.

northernrefugee39 · 03/12/2007 15:10

sorry about typing spelling errors- I like the way I've spelt dyslexic.....

rebelmum1 · 03/12/2007 15:25

I don't think at kindergarten level it's quite so religious, i went to the mother toddler group and it was all about creative play and celebrating the seasons. The strangest thing was the applelady who came and sang and gave the kids apples adorned in a bonnet and old clothes. I opted for a montessori nursery which I can wholeheartedly recommend.

rebelmum1 · 03/12/2007 15:28

I think they teach mythology, and draw on this but I don't think they hammer it home. I have to say I'm a little confused about the anthroposophy. They have some very unusual traditions. I personally think it needs updating.

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