Quick poll - Pg ladies, how pg are you and will you be having the swine flu jab?

[laurawantsababy]

I am 25 weeks pg with dc2 and very confused.

After another death but with conflicting advice about the jab chosen for the UK what are we to do??

I would love you here everyones choice and thoughts on it to help me out.

Thanks

midnightsun, I forgot to mention, my grandmother is Norwegian so someone in my family will be able to read the links which you provided!! :-) its a small world!

The petition is done on the 10 Downing Street website. Once you have filled it in its sent to their office and they chose whether or not to let it run.

Hopefully I have worded it better this time.

catski

yes your midwife is right: although the adjuvant-containing flu vaccine has not been tested on pregnant humans, with the model vaccine for Pandemrix - which was a base vaccine to which they added the bird flu virus as a test (before they knew which strain of flu the pandemic flu would be) - they conducted clinical trials on animals including pregnant females and reported no negative effect on either mother or offspring during pregnancy, after birth or in early young development after birth.

I read this in the Pandemrix fact booklet issued by the Norwegian public health institute.

www.fhi.no/dav/f81e5aec12.pdf

Some of the English language documentation it links to in the references section:

European Public Assessment Report (EPAR)describing documentation for the vaccine
www.emea.europa.eu/humandocs/PDFs/EPAR/pandemrix/emea-combined-h832en.pdf

WHO safety information on pandemic vaccines
www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/h1n1_safety_vaccines_20090805/en/index.html

Discussion of pandemic vaccines' safety in WHO's ?Global advisory committee on
Vaccine safety? published in ?Weekly epidemiological record 7. august 2009?:
www.who.int/wer/2009/wer8432/en/index.html

Production process & timescales for pandemic vaccines
www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/h1n1_vaccine_20090806/en/index.html

WHO information about squalene as an adjuvant:
www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/

About clincial studies with Pandemrix, press release from GSK 14.08.09:
www.gsk.com/media/pressreleases/2009/2009_pressrelease_10084.htm

World register of clinical trials
www.clinicaltrials.gov/

Sorry to hear about the petition, laurawantsababy.

hi iam 22 iam 4 months pregnant an have a boy going on 4 an a daughter just gone 1 i dont no wether or not to have the jab as iv heard tests have not been done on pregnant women so the out come is not none but i am allso worried as hearing pregnant women dieing in 24 hours i dont want to risk haveing the jab nor worrie about wether or not iam going to wake up to my kids the next day iv heard that pregnant women shouled lock them selfs in for the winter an not go out but my sons in school an mypatner works so i dout me staying in would help iam so confused right now as to what to do

hi iam 22 iam 4 months pregnant an have a boy going on 4 an a daughter just gone 1 i dont no wether or not to have the jab as iv heard tests have not been done on pregnant women so the out come is not none but i am allso worried as hearing pregnant women dieing in 24 hours i dont want to risk haveing the jab nor worrie about wether or not iam going to wake up to my kids the next day iv heard that pregnant women shouled lock them selfs in for the winter an not go out but my sons in school an mypatner works so i dout me staying in would help iam so confused right now as to what to do

hi iam 22 iam 4 months pregnant an have a boy going on 4 an a daughter just gone 1 i dont no wether or not to have the jab as iv heard tests have not been done on pregnant women so the out come is not none but i am allso worried as hearing pregnant women dieing in 24 hours i dont want to risk haveing the jab nor worrie about wether or not iam going to wake up to my kids the next day iv heard that pregnant women shouled lock them selfs in for the winter an not go out but my sons in school an mypatner works so i dout me staying in would help iam so confused right now as to what to do

There was an informative bit on pregnant women and flu jabs (both seasonal and Swine) on Women's hour on Radio 4 today (19th October).

Having listened to it I decided to have both - had the seasonal one today and am booked for the Swine flu one later this week.

Am 30 weeks pregnant and tend to get bad chest infections every winter. The radio interviewee was a senior epidemiologist who explained that pregnant women were more at risk due to our lowered immunity, squashed lungs and also that it's harmful to the unborn baby if you suffer a high fever at any point in a pregnancy. I'm sure that if you go to the BBC iplayer you'b be able to listen to the relevant bit and it might help you make your minds up!

Oh my God, it's days like these I LOVE MUMSNET. There's just nothing like it in all the World.

It is so frustrating that there is so much good quality information available if you know where to find it, but all we are presented with in the media is scaremongering and over simplification of the facts.

Many thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post links etc- it has been invaluable to me to help me make the decision to have the vaccine to protect me, my unborn child and to make sure my 2yo DS still has his mummy for years to come. I cannot tell you how relieved I feel to be able to make an informed choice.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

16 weeks

I'm not sure, my son was suspected with swine flu this week, still recovering.

Had an appointment with my consultant yesterday - I asked again about the jab and she said that it hadn't yet been approved for pregnant women, so even if I wanted it, I couldn't have it. She said that she would keep me posted as to when approval is given....she herself has had the jab, so she's not anti vaccine or anything.....she did say that even if it does get approved she wouldn't recommend it as you shouldn't take a live vaccine if pregnant, which really confused me as I thought the vaccine wasn't live!! I wish that the medical profession would get their stories straight as according to some of the posters on this site, the vaccine IS being offered now (so must be approved) and is not live!!! Agghhhh! Confused!!!!

Thanks for the info midnightsun. You are extremely knowledgeable.

Spent all night dreaming about this bloody vaccine and still no closer to making a decision.

Another thought to add to the mix - people are saying that it's important not to have a fever when pregnant, but one of the side effects of the vaccine can be a fever!

Dd has her MMR this afternoon. Im going to ask the nurses then what they know about it as it will be them administering it.

Still nothing back about my updated petition. Will keep you all updated...

I'm still deciding on the jab...

but this transcript from a World Health Organisation meeting worries me a bit. See page 7 which states that there is not enough data to accurately assess the effects of Adjuvant based vaccines in pregnant women or children between 6 months and 3 years...

www.who.int/mediacentre/pandemic_h1n1_presstranscript_2009_07_13.pdf

I've got 9 weeks left at work - if I'm still undecided by then I'll probably go without the jab.
In the meantime, I'm constantly washing my hands and using anti-bac gel, taking multi vitamins, checking my temperature, making sure I get a lot of rest and eating a healthy diet.

I believe that Australia have already started vaccinating their pregnant population, does anyone know which vaccine they are using and if it's going well?

lumpasmelly Pandemrix has been approved by the WHO for use on pregnant women, not only approved but recommended. It must also be approved for use by the national medicines agency in each country where it will be used, so perhaps that is what your consultant was referring to. She is misinformed about it being a live vaccine though, if it's the UK one. Pandremix is NOT live. uses dead swineflu strains. I'm going to find some links to official info and post them in a bit!

and catski you are right, fever can be a side effect of the vaccine but it would be comparatively low grade fever and much shorter lived, max 1-2 days.

I love Dr Google!

A close friend is a scientist (not a doctor or healthcare practitioner, but someone who works directly with viruses) specialising in flu. His advice to me, having attended pow-wows on this issue, is to have the vaccine.

He says that the risk of complications from SF is higher once you're in your third trimester. In fact he was concerned enough to consider calling me about this. I'm 25 weeks now so will spend most of the flu season heavily pregnant.

My friend also pointed out my newborn baby will get immunity through my breastmilk should I have the vaccine. As babies are too young for the jab, and under-fives are another high risk SF group, I consider that to be a plus.

My personal decision is to have the jab.

Midnightsun - I think your posts have been so helpful; thank you.

However, the latest updates (2 and 9 October) from the European Medicines Agency including the package information leaflets for both Pandremix and Cevlapan make it quite clear that Pandremix (GSK) has not been declared suitable for use in pregnancy - only non adjuvanated drugs are recommended and that would be Cevlapan (Baxters). In fact, it goes on to say on the Pandremix leaflet that it shouldn't be used for anyone under 9. Both leaflets and associated data and info can be found here. Scroll to the bottom to get links to each vaccine.

I haven't heard from my GP yet but will be pushing for the Baxters one as recommended by a GP friend.

My options are either to have it this week (when they are vaccinating pregnant women in sweden), or in 7 weeks time when they start vaccinating the general population. I will have had the baby by then.

I think I might wait to have it, bearing in mind swine flu cases have taken a dip in my area. If there was any stats from pregnant women who have already had it I might change my mind, but I feel like I'm the guinea pig at the very front of the queue.

If the stats start going up dramatically or there's any whiff of it at my son's nursery I will pull him out and batten down the hatches (I don't work and we live rather remotely).

I really feel we're all caught between a rock and a hard place.

I can't find a reference below to the American research published earlier this summer which I saw reported in the Times. It tracked 36 pregnant women - a cross section of the population - who contracted swine flu during May-June. None of those women had taken anti-virals (the report didn't say why). Of those 36 women, 11 were admitted to hosptial and 6 of them died. 5 of their babies were delivered safely. That's a shocking mortality rate and needs to be taken into account in weighting up risks. It's a shame there was no data on outcomes for women who tooks anti virals at the first sign of symptoms.

Approved and licensed for use by the European Commission 25 September:

www.gsk.com/media/pressreleases/2009/2009_pressrelease_10094.htm

UK Department of Health letter to all medical practitioners, signed by the Chief Medical Officer, Chief Nursing Officer and Chief Pharmaceutical Officer.

www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_107190.pdf

It details schedule of vaccine distribution. Names pregnant women as a priority group and also states that both Pandmerix and Cevlapan are licensed and approved for use. Also says that Pandemrix is an inactivated i.e. not live, vaccine:

It also says about people who have already had swine flu:

"People who have had laboratory confirmed Influenza A(H1N1)v infection do not need to be vaccinated with swine flu vaccine. However, vaccine can be given to these individuals with no ill effects. In the absence of a laboratory confirmed diagnosis of Influenza A(H1N1)v infection, individuals should be vaccinated."

Interestingly it prefers Celvapan over Pandemrix for children.

"Vaccines for children and young people - JCVI (Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation) confirmed its earlier advice that Pandemrix should be the vaccine of choice for children and young people up to 18 years of age. This is because currently there are no paediatric data available for Celvapan."

Pandemrix is clearly stated as the preferred vaccine for pregnant women.

"JCVI recommended that pregnant women should be given Pandemrix since a one-dose schedule with this vaccine appears to give adequate levels of antibodies and thereby confer more rapid protection than would be afforded by a two-dose schedule. Expert scientific advice is clear that thiomersal-containing vaccines do not present a risk to pregnant women or their offspring. More detailed advice will be in the new Immunisation Against Infectious Diseases (The Green Book) chapter on Swine Flu that will be issued shortly, to reinforce this point."

And I will just link to this page on the WHO about the adjuvant squalene again, since the DoH briefing letter doe not go into it.

www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/

It is a naturally occurring substance that already exists in every human body. It is extracted from fish oil, specifically shark liver oil, for the purpose of vaccines. A Google search showed me that some creams and oils for treating stretchmarks contain squalene. Injecting it is not the same as rubbing it into belly and thighs though, eh.

Anyway. That's this afternoon's fix of direct source information. It would be a nice world if all medical practitioners also read all the sources and provided accurate information as well as their own personal opinions, hey. I suspect they have rather a lot of work on their plates though, this flu pandemic is just adding to the stress for them as well as us.

And this is GSK report on clinical trials.

www.gsk.com/media/pressreleases/2009/2009_pressrelease_10111.htm

Includes detail that GSK?s H1N1 flu pandemic vaccine Pandemrix? was approved for use in 27 European countries on 30th of September by the European Medicines Evaluation Agency.

The EC approval 25 Sep was for marketing, not use. My misinterpretation in previous post.

As of 16 October, 2000 people had received Pandremix. The adjuvant system in GSK?s influenza vaccine has already been tested in more than 41,000 people in GSK?s influenza programmes, not specifically this vaccine though. I think all they have done that is different is replace the flu antigen in the trial / model vaccine for inactivated swine flu antigens.

DoH letter prefers Pandemrix over Celvapan for children. I wrote them the wrong way round in my post! That was unfortunate.

hannahsaunt hmmm yes I recollect seeing something in the press locally about the original packaging information being updated. The Public Health Institute here instructs medical practitioners to ignore and refer to the packaging info issued most recently.

I'm not sure what to make of that really...!

I would presume it's because Pandemrix has been in development for a number of years and they would have automatically included the standard "not recommended during pregnancy" as hey knew they would never be conducted clinical trials on pregnant humans. It's been relatively recently in terms of drug development that public health bodies have realised that pregnant women are in one of the worse risk groups for swine flu, so my assumption is they are taking the chance that they should go ahead and license it for our group even though they have no testing data.

There's no getting around that unfortunately. They don't know it's safe in pregnancy. They are making an informed assumption that it is safe, citing the lack of any evidence to the contrary

I've accepted that I just am never going to be 100% convinced. But then, one can't ever be 100% sure about any medicine or vaccine. We go on experience and how many times it has been used before with no ill effects. I wouldn't dream of turning down for example a measles or meningitis jab and at some point, those too were injected into a human for the first time and a baby for the first time.

Pandemrix is only preferred because it's given in one dose rather than two and they don't trust people to pitch up three weeks later for the second cevlapan shot. However, research-wise everything suggests that the non-adjuvanated vax is the way to go in pregnancy.

JuliaGulia I couldn't open that link so can you re-post, I would also be interested to read that about adjuvants in 6 mths to 3 yrs and pregnant women.

In my posts above I forgot to add the round the links so they won#t work to click on you have to copy and paste into your browser. Here they are as proper links.

WHO on the adjuvant squalene

www.who.int/vaccinesafety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_andanswers/en/

GSK report on latest clinical trials

www.gsk.com/media/pressreleases/2009/2009pressrelease10111.htm

I think one reason I keep searching and reading and trawling is that I am hoping to suddenly find out that they have in fact tested this exact vaccine formulation on 5000 pregnant women and all 5000 went on to have normal births and no ill effects for mother or baby and the babies all grew up into normal adults with no health issues. I'm dreaming.