Facing criticism/judgement over baby no.6

[Loudhouse6]

hi, are there any ladies here who have experienced judgement or criticism for the size of their family? How did you deal with people judging your families size?

me and my husband have been together 20 years. We have five children together 18,8,7,5&2 we are expecting our last baby later in the year. We had our first child when we were 18&20. No one believed we would last being so young but we proved everyone wrong. When we became more financially stable we had our second and subsequent children.

I’m so anxious at the thought of announcing because we’ve already taken a lot of criticism from friends, family and even strangers when it came to babies 4+5.

to give some context we both work full time running our own business which means we’re financially independent and are sensible with money. Working together means we are more than able to juggle work and kids without relying on childcare.

We don’t rely on friends or family to take care of our children and our oldest child who is soon to turn 19 is not asked to baby sit or take responsibility for her younger siblings in any way. I have heard of older siblings becoming like second parents but this is absolutely not the case with us. We may have a babysitter once or twice a year so me and my husband’s life is literally raising our children and work.

giving all of the above I don’t understand why we have been judged so harshly when we are hard working parents who don’t depend on anyone for any sort of support. All of our children are well cared for and loved. We make sure we have one on one time with our children whether it’s activities or a trip out and we also do activities as a whole family.

my brother has said some very derogatory things to me in the past about how many children I have and it makes me wonder if other people think the same way of me too.

sorry for the ramble it’s just we’re a big happy family and I don’t want our joy spoiled. How did you ladies cope with the criticism?

@Loudhouse6you have misunderstood. This post and my response was about caring for elderly parents.

Your assumption that all 6 children will be productive members of society and pay taxes is fine - but it’s just that, an assumption. It’s not a fact. We don’t have a crystal ball to see into the future. With unemployment, rising levels of people with disabilities, increased numbers of people on benefits and increased numbers of people needing state funded care in later life, all combined with reduced availability of housing and long NHS waiting times, it’s a financial disaster waiting to happen.

I think as long as you work and don't relay on benefits then I don't care how many children you have.
I judge my neighbour who has 6 kids because neither of them work and capable of working and we're paying for them.

Don't you think that's quite anecdotal experience?

The only large families I know- one is made up of an extraordinarily wealthy family where the dad is a Tech genius, the mum a stay at home mum/very successful writer. The kids are all set for oxbridge, have multiple different interests and hobbies, very much an individualised childhood.

The other is an adult friend of mine, one of 5. Ex pro tennis player, now a hospital consultant.

Both of those families have really benefited from having lots of siblings, a large warm family experience where they were treated as individuals.

If I assumed every large family was going to be like the ones I know personally then I'd assume they were all destined to be extremely wealthy and successful. I do not think that is true.

So you think the solution is to stop having children at all ?

Because for the fact the OP has 6 kids to be relevant to that means you're assuming 6 children from 6 families are more likely to be taxpayers than 6 children from one family with two working parents.

Statistically children of parents who work are more likely to work themselves.

So either you think the solution is to have less children overall - which means an aging population of pensioners are going to support the country in the end because there are no more children being born (How's that working out in Italy?)

Or you think that 6 kids from 6 different families will all be guaranteed taxpayers, vs 6 kids from one family where that's an assumption.

The factors that go into whether people are likely to be taxpayers in the future are largely socioeconomic, not directly related to numbers of siblings. So one family which has strong enough socioeconomic factors to support 6 children without state help is likely to produce 6 taxpaying children.

In reality though, you can't really compare 6 individual children to a family of 6 children because it's not really relevant. Level of parents education, family income, place of birth - these are the types things which make a difference on a large scale.

I absolutely have nothing against single parents or parents who have children with different partners. You have read it in the wrong way, what I meant was my brother knows my situation and still said the things he said.

I don’t expect people to live how I live and I don’t judge people. Some families separate and move on and find happy relationship with others and have more children. It certainly isn’t dirty in my book but it must to my brother. I can only imagine what he would have said if I had been in a situation with children from multiple fathers.

I never asked anything from anyone and certainly not praise, but I didn’t expect so much discrimination and misogyny. If I came on here and said I had five children to five different men, didn’t work, pawned my kids off to everyone and anyone. I would be dragged through the mud and not because I think it’s wrong to have more than one father to my children but because I know that people look down on women who do.

my own siblings have children with different partners. I mean my brother that I was talking of has four children with three different partners. Ok for a man not but a woman I guess in his eyes. I never once judged him anyone for how they live their life.

one thing I have learned from this post even if you are doing amazing for your kids someone will do their damndest to twist what you’ve said into something it ain’t. I came to ask others in a similar situation to me how they dealt with criticism for their large family and many that aren’t in that situation came on here to do exactly what I have already faced.

I mean there was a comment put on here and was quickly removed for community standards. I never got a chance to reply but what they were implying was people who have big families are seen like the diggers and the radfords and the mention of abhorrent abuse was brought up. It was actually shocking what they were implying but I never had a chance to say before it was swiftly taken down.

I’ll tell you one thing it has ignited a new fire in my belly to tell people to go get fucked though. I suppose in the same way we were judged as young parents when people said it’ll never last and their daughter will be underprivileged and all the other bullshit people spout to young parents and yet their eating their words twenty years on and my daughter who is now an adult wants nothing more to still be at home with her parents and siblings, so we must be doing something right.

There’s nothing that says she didn’t get the support she needs. We’ve always fought our daughter’s corner in every aspect of her life. She knows she can come to me anytime and she does. We’ve sat up late into the night one to one. I guess the point of my original post is can not assume anything and why it goat my goat in the first place that people so just that.

Official figures projected that the UK’s population would grow from 68 million in 2022 to 77 million in 2046. Net migration accounted for 104% of this growth, because deaths were projected to outnumber births from 2030. (https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-impact-of-migration-on-uk-population-growth/)

I'm not anti-immigration / migration. But none of the problems you mention are caused by the OP having 6 children, because in the UK deaths will outnumber births in 2030. The population is not growing because of larger family sizes - as a country we are having less children per household than we were 50 years ago, but the problems you mentioned are increasing and the population is still increasing.

So each family having less children will not fix unemployment and the NHS. We are having less children anyway because of factors like unemployment and the increased cost of raising children.

I don't have a large family BTW. I have two kids, I have one sibling.

I think you just need to take from some of the comments on here that often people hold beliefs and make judgements based on their own personal anecdotal experience.

You would be wasting your time to try and please everyone, you don't need to evidence to the contrary, you've nothing to prove. Just brush it off.

As you can see, there will always be people who will criticise your decisions if they are different to their own. You're not personally responsible for growing unemployment or an increasing population - these things would happen with or without you having another baby.

Don't let it detract from your own happiness. Congratulations on your impending arrival - that's a very joyful thing !

My oldest has spent the last three years in higher education and will be leaving in a few weeks to go into the profession she has trained for. Caring for the pensioners you talk about doing a job that a lot of people wouldn’t do. She’s a caring young woman who wants to help others and has plans to eventually improve on that with more qualifications in the future. It just shows how people judge without a full picture. She’s a functioning member of society. We don’t get any discounts and I we pay our way fully.

you say children suck up resources, generate waste and spread diseases as if adults don’t do the same. And what would you suggest we stop having children? I mean with a declining birth rate and an aging population what’s your solution. I know many Middle Ages people who are a bigger drain on society than my family

The other thing I would say is: how much time do you have to devote to friendships? My friend had numerous kids in close succession and had hardly any time for our friendship any more. Everything we did had to be with the kids, leaving no time for us to go out just the two of us and chat about “adult” things. She gave up work to look after them and now the vast majority of her chat is about child related matters. She and her husband have so many kids, they don’t even see where the kids are affecting others in society (think allowing them to scoot around coffee shops, which I think is inconsiderate and dangerous)

It’s boring. I’ve seen an incredibly self-centred side to the pair of them.

The friendship withered on the vine.

we are not catholic so there’s no strict upbringing in that way in our home and your experience doesn’t speak for everyone. Even on this post we have seen some hated and some loved it. My oldest is happy and still wants to live at home. Shes nearly 19 and had the opportunity to move out but she chose not to because she felt she had it better at home. What does that say?

Sorry your parents didn’t have time for you like I do mine, it’s a shame but honestly your experience doesn’t represent every big family.

Would my daughter have 6 children of her own no but not for the reasons some on her would think. It’s not because she thinks she and her siblings are neglected or not receive enough but because she knows how hard it is the cooking the cleaning the planning on top of working etc but she definitely wants children she would have one tomorrow but she is a sensible girl and wants to make sure she’s in a position to give them a happy life like we gave her. It hasn’t put her off having a family of her own. Our experience isn’t clearly different from your own situation.

Likely projection/defence mechanism to cover his own low self esteem. He's gaslighting you. Do not fall fall for it by defending yourself
I understand his hideous rantings are not nice to hear (in fact he sounds abusive and pickled in alcohol) but don't validate his nonsense by explaining yourself.
Would distancing your family from him be an option?

I’ve seen a lot of negative comments on your post and I just wanted to counteract it with something positive.

You sound like an absolutely lovely, hardworking family and I’m sure that this new baby would be very much loved and wanted. It sounds like you have thought everything through financially and you are able to add another one to the mix.

My husband and I run a business together too and work similar hours and it’s definitely is possible to work that many hours without relying on childcare. And I agree with you about the amount of tax and national insurance businesses pay!! You are more than contributing to society.

I’m sorry that you have had so many negative responses and that your family hasn’t been supportive. I think you sound like a great mum, your children are obviously very well loved and cared for and don’t go without. Plus they have two hardworking parents to set an example!!

I’ve been on mumsnet for around a year now and am finding it very addictive and need to step away but it’s like X and I constantly find myself drawn back to it. I sometimes wonder if these posts are made up either totally or partially. This particular thread is starting to feel a little off and I think the scenario being painted is difficult to believe particularly some of the financial aspects and the time allocation between work and caring for the home/family. Does anyone else ever feel that way about this or other posts? Just interested as I think I’d find it easier to step away if I could convince myself it’s not real.

@Loudhouse6
I was speaking from personal experience as an adult who grew up in a large family and hated it. There is a lot of UK based research to show that children have better outcomes in smaller families. I know my London Borough boasts that all cared for children live in foster families rather than children’s homes ( like Tracey Beaker’s)
from Google
Research indicates that children in smaller families (typically two or fewer siblings) often fare better academically and behaviorally than those in larger families,
It may work for you but by and large, big families are not great for most children

two of my children have hobbies that the others don’t enjoy. They still get to enjoy them even though their siblings don’t. So they can definitely pursue their interests. Both of us are hands on and my husband pulls his weight at work and home with the kids. So while I’m taking one to a hobby he’s doing something else with the others.

i grew up in a family with less siblings and I honestly we spend more time with our kids than my parents did and they only had three. Do feel like I didn’t get enough time with them? No, also learned that the world doesn’t revolve around me.

May dad worked similar hours to my husband and even though my mam was stay at home I didn’t get any extra time. Our weekends were family and through the week was school and work plus some after school activities. We are no different from the norm we just juggle more children. I guess becuase some people can’t manage it they assume no one can.

none of my children are sen thankfully but my daughter was behind on her maths so we paid a tutor to help her catch up. Two of my sons are above their peers and are excelling. I have one son who is I suppose considered average but he’s still very young.

I have savings on top of our income. You do know that a two working parents can earn nearly 120k between them and still get child benefit. If you can’t raise a family of 8 on that amount of money there is something sadly wrong with your ability to manage your finances. I know many families with only 1 or 2 children that don’t get half of the time effort or love that our children do.

I advocate for my children and if there’s a problem I fight their corner whole heartedly. My children are individuals and are treated as such not like some heard of animals that need to be managed as one

when I mentioned I handed things down clothes toys etc people assume the don’t get new. They get more new than handed down but why would I throw good things away when I can still use them. Someone mentioned big families are bad for the environment but when I say we re use what we can I’m criticized too. Should I try and care for the environment or be more wasteful people need to make their minds up. If 20% is passed down that’s 80% new. We live in a world where people are so wasteful.

My thoughts too. We are just under the threshold for still being able to claim child benefit and we have to watch our money with 3 children. I couldn’t imagine having 6 and not having to seriously budget.

@Loudhouse6 can you give us a breakdown of a typical day as I am intrigued how you and your DH work the hours you do and there is no childcare involved (and how does it work in the school holidays)

Yes me too on time but also financial. Don’t see how either works. Also why draw so little income from the business as if it pays the corporation tax suggested it must be extremely profitable. If it’s being left in the business to pass down that’s strange when there must be a current needs and there are possible IHT issues. These explanations are making less sense to me every time I read this. I know I really should just stop reading but it’s got addictive🙄

I get your point but that isn’t the case for me. I have close friend group and I do have more children than any of my friends but I have been able to maintain those friendships. I’ve many a time left my children at home with my husband and had a girls day/night out. My best friend though she loves my kids and loves spending time with them. She comes on family days out sometimes and other times it’s just us. We’ve been best friends for 25 years and we’ve seen each other through the highs and lows of life.

I don’t agree with children being allowed to run around public spaces like restaurants and coffe shops. When we do eat out my children are expected to sit and behave. The last time we went out for a meal as a family i remember an elderly couple watching us. they approached us as they were leave and admired our children. Maybe they were pleasantly surprised at how well behaved they were and secretly judged us upon walking into the restaurant. I’ve seen families with less children struggle to control their kids in public. But I don’t judge as some families have sen children or difficulties we on the outside don’t see.

It does work and has done for a long time. My dad also ran his own business and before he passed he taught me a lot. I take a salary and not as much as I could and yes it is left in the business to be passed down in the same way my dad did. The business has no debts and is profitable. For a long time we wanted to make sure we were well established and doing everything right before increasing our salary but we do take a lot less from the business than we could. I don’t feel the need to take more when we are doing fine as we are. I explained in another comment how a typical day goes and it’s not much different during the school holidays. I’m not out to make millions we’re just an average family happy with our lot

So in the school holidays the children have to come to work with you if you are swapping over. Do all the children have to tag along when taking others to their hobbies?

I don’t think our incomes are too dissimilar OP, although I do live in an expensive area I don’t think there is anything wrong with my ability to manage finances, and I certainly could not afford 6 children (3 would probably be our financial limit).

I would love to see a bit of a breakdown of housing costs, bills, food shop etc to see how it would compare to me.

I explained a typical day earlier in the thread but through the week the day starts at 5.30am my husband opens the garage at 6.30am. At that time I’m getting up and doing housework before I get the children up at 7.30 and off to school.

I head back home and do more housework and spend time with our youngest. Sometimes I go to toddler activities with them and then I will head to work and swap over with my husband. He will head home with the youngest and pick the children up from school and vice versa. He will start making the tea and I will close the business at 6pm. Some days I work more than others. We live not very far from our business and we’re usually all back home for 6.20pm.

we usually sit down for dinner as a family at 7pm. Then me and my husband do bath and bedtime routine together for the children. But sometimes my 7&8 year old take a shower straight after school leaving only the two youngest to sort. Sometimes I open the garage up it’s not all set in stone and we make it work around us and our plans that day. Between 3 and 6pm one of us is with the children spending time doing reading as well as preparing dinner. It’s not as hard as people think. Thursdays is boxing straight after school. So the other children stay at work with us in a safe office while one of us takes him for his hour lesson. Fridays they have swimming lesson after business is closed and we eat later that day but it doesn’t really matter as it’s the weekend the next day. Saturday mornings three do football practice and we take the two year old with us while the other is at work. We have a people carrier that carries everyone as well as a smaller five seater for this kind of things. Saturday business hours are only 8am till 12pm and we have an employee who does that shift while we take turns working alternate Saturdays.

My husband has worked this morning so I did the football practice and back home. after football practice we've done some activities st home and the children are now out in the garden while I make lunch: My husband will be home in the next 20 mins half an hour and after lunch we plan to go out. The business is closed on Sundays which is our main day as a family. It’s not different to the life I had with my parents except I have more children and tbh I spend more time playing with my children and doing activities than my boomer parents did

its the same in school holidays one of us stays home while the other is running the business. It’s changed over the years. I ised to work a lot more hours and as the children all head into school I’ll be working more hours again. At one point when my dad was dying of cancer I was his carer. My husband worked 12hr days for months. It was exhausting but he never once complained. Now I take over where I can so he doesn’t have to do as many hours but he still works a lot but it’s what he wanted

some days we just have a lazy day and do next to nothing and that’s ok we work hard and some days the children will just play in the garden. It’s really no different to any family.