Why are woman made to feel guilty for desiring a particular gender?

[Milliegirl25]

My whole life I have wished for a daughter. I know it sounds crazy but since I was a little girl I've felt like I've known her. I've dreamt about her, wrote stories about her, spent years coming up with a beautiful, meaningful name, and once I decided on the name I would write it out over and over, I would paint it, draw it, type it. Just because I was so proud of it and couldn't wait until the day I could proudly give it to my future daughter. I am currently pregnant. Like a lot of woman I have been through a lot to get to this point. I suffer with a severe anxiety disorder that has effected me my whole life, not only mentally but it also causes a host of unexplained physical symptoms. Two years ago I had a miscarriage, following that I got pregnant again. I suffered with such severe anxiety during those first few weeks I couldn't function. Tried to access support but felt under pressure due to the limited amount of time I had to make a decision. In the end my partner and I decided to terminate. I have lived with guilt as a result of my decision everyday since and have never been able to forgive myself. I worked incredibly hard and put in a lot of time, effort and money to ensure my next pregnancy wouldn't be the same. I have been seeing a perinatal psychiatrist for over two years now to support my mental health for the next pregnancy, I take medication, I exercised daily, changed my diet, got all the prenatal testing done, read books, listened to podcasts and did everything in my power to support myself to ensure this pregnancy would be successful. We even started the IVF process as it took us over a year to concieve, but luckily just as we started, we concieved naturally. Anyway despite all the work and preparation I put into this pregnancy, one thing I didn't completely consider is the possibility of not having a daughter. I know it's 50/50 but my entire life I have felt the presence of my "daughter" and just felt in my heart that for once in my life things might actually fall into place, and I might finally get my lifelong dream.
Well that wasn't the case. Two days ago I got my NIPT results back and it said male. The way I have been feeling since this news has completely taken me off guard. I mean this pregnancy has not been easy mentally so far. I'm 12 weeks and have needed a lot of mental health support for my anxiety, and have been working incredibly hard to make it through each day. But when I got the news that I wouldn't be having a daughter the pain has been completely unbearable. I will not be able to have another chance, due to my anxiety disorder. So this means I will never have the daughter that I dreamed of my whole life. I thought to myself as long as the baby if healthy, I would cope, but am shocked at how I have reacted. I know I come across as ungrateful and that's what hurts. Woman sacrifice so much physically and mentally to have a child. But when they express their desires (in this case for a particular gender), they are made to feel selfish, ungrateful or that they shouldn't be a parent if they aren't happy with the gender they are given. Anything else in life (a home, something we save up for, a career etc) we work hard and as a result we desire a particular outcome and if we don't get it, it can be upsetting. This is similar but woman aren't supported if they are upset over not having their dream of a daughter/son fulfilled. There's so much judgement online in this situation.
I just feel so disconnected from this pregnancy now. I have had to work hard for a lot of things in my life (as we all do) but this pregnancy has been something I have worked for 24/7 for over two years, and at the end of it, I will never get my longed for daughter.
I cannot stop crying. I'm grieving for someone that never existed, and feeling like an absolute awful person for not just letting my dream go and being grateful for what I have.
Since I found out every minute has been unbearable. I don't know where to go from here. The thought of living my whole life without filling that empty space in my heart that's been waiting for a daughter since I was a little girl, is absolutely unbearable.

If you have read this far, thankyou. Please no negative judgement. I already feel like an awful person, I don't need anyone else to tell me. Thanks, for reading.

Op please continue to access support and therapy. You and your son deserve more than for you to spend your lives together broken hearted that he can never be what you want.
It's easy to say boys are great, they are, I have three, but that doesn't matter. What matters is if you continue the pregnancy, your baby deserves to be loved and accepted and enough.

OP I think having a boy might be the best thing for you. A girl would have never lived up to this dream idea. You would have felt so disappointed if they were a Tom boy and didn’t have the relationship you wanted. Which would have left you lashing out and I honestly think the relationship would have been doomed with a daughter.

You having a boy was maybe meant to be!

I think inate sex based characteristics that give one a 'gender' is a fiction. However gender stereotyping is very much real and its this that leads to a different parenting experience of boys and girls.
Because while there is absolutely no reason based in his biology that would cause your son to reject sharing your interest in embroidery in order to play football, say, he is still more likely than your daughter to do so nonetheless. Because from the moment he leaves the bubble of your care, he will be being taught how to 'be a boy', how he should behave, act and think. What his preferences should be and how he should live as a male in our world.
I couldn't agree more that this is hugely disappointing, and has been greatly exacerbated by GI. But...we are where we are. The OP is likely to find a son will have different interests to a daughter, because he will be pushed hard to that, and her influence will be but one amongst many, and will lessen as he grows.
I think rather that go down the line of there being no difference, its more helpful to acknowledge there will be (societally created not inate, but no less real for that) and navigate it accordingly.

I wanted a girl and got one and if I'm being completely honest I would have been disappointed if it was a boy I think. I'm sure I'd have loved him just the same but I might have wanted another one, whereas now I have my daughter I'm happy. I think when you're in a position (like me and you) where one pregnancy was something of a miracle and it's not that easy to just have another, gender disappointment might hit harder.

There's a whole load of reasons why it's not socially acceptable.

• Some people are desperate for ANY baby and complaining that your baby isn't the right sort of baby can be offensive to them, especially saying it's unbearable pain, when you consider the unbearable pain of long term infertility.
• The baby's sex doesn't tell you anything about what kind of person they are going to be and they might not even identify as that gender (not interested in a Mumsnet War on this).
• All babies deserve to be loved and cherished equally and people worry that a baby who was the "wrong gender" might feel inadequate because of that, or even be treated less favourably by the disappointed parent.

It's not the same as a career or a mortgage, this is a human life and everything you do now has to be in their best interests.

There’s been a lot of replies on here already so I’m just adding to the noise at this point, but from the OP, why would you do all that? Dream of having a little girl when you know it’s a game of chance, 50% chance to be exact. You can’t predict what sex of child you’ll have. You’re just setting yourself up for a fall.

I really feel that this is just what your anxiety has "chosen" to latch onto and focus on, OP. If it wasn't the sex it'd be something else. That isn't to invalidate your feelings and experiences, but I think that actually with proper support you can come through this and enjoy parenting your son. I don't think you are fated to be disappointed; I think it's anxiety fixating on something.

Perfectly put, @MrsTerryPratchett.

@Milliegirl25 - I have had three sons, and no daughters, and I can absolutely promise you that having boys is wonderful. I hope that, when your baby is born, you fall in love with them exactly as they are.

I do get what you’re saying but expressing and discussing gender disappointment should in no way be socially unacceptable. As is clearly the case with OP it can be just one facet of MH issues and talking about it without fear of causing offence or being judged should be encouraged, just as with any other aspect of MH. Unfortunately, as we’ve seen all to clearly, MN is not the place for that.

So - i definitely think you need a LOT of therapy, and I do really worry for this child.
That being said:

• The daughter you imagined never existed. She could have been born disabled. Or just totally different to how you expected, with totally different interests, and looking totally different. You have no idea. I have 2 DD and they are chalk and cheese. One similar to me, and the other looks and reacts completely differently, I am constantly amazed by her (love them both the same BTW). I imagined my child sporty and a real go getter. Turns out 2nd DD is very gentle, not competitive and loves to draw. I imagined my kids aceing school, top of the class because I was, avid readers. Reality is different. Your girl would not have lived up to your ideas. And, later on, could have been a complete witch with you, girls are not always easy. And couldl well have hated your lovely name because it's no longer on trend and she wants a cool name that is trendy in 2044, not now).
• I don't see why you couldn't have another child. You might be pleasantly surprised (this one was conceived naturally), and there may be several more - so don't over think this part!

Finally - I think gender is 'overthought', especially when they are little. I had always imagined myself with 2 DD (I had one sister, no boys in the family and I was generally not a big fan of boys). My first child (I have 3) was a boy, and I thought that might be the case right from the start (when I started the pregnancy journey I no longer cared what I had, was equally happy with both and didn't want to know till the birth).
Quite frankly, in the first few years, they are totally genderless in my eyes - all the stuff we bought before and after birth was genderless or a combination of all colours. I totally reject those stereotypes. And my baby for me was like a little animal, we were a team - I was helping him along, playing with him, developping him, and he was just unisex. I never thought twice about his gender, he was just himself, unique. As a child, of all my kids, he was the one who enjoyed reading and singing the most, was reliable and thoughtful.
I think that's the biggest thing. Children are not a gender - they are one of a kind, I think. And it's the way you treat them that genders them. Please don't think of him as 'a boy', he is just a little part of you, and he is also just himself.

Completely agree with this, it's beyond selfish.

It saddens me to see a woman who is clearly troubled and battling mental health issues posting on a predominantly female forum for support and receiving nothing but ignorant judgement from some. MN should be a safe space for vulnerable women, but clearly that’s not the case. OP hasn’t returned. Well done everyone.

No one can make you feel worse than you’re already making yourself feel, OP. You have created a fantasy that was supposed to make you feel happy, it never had anything to do with an actual child. You’ve got to step up as an actual parent now, talk to a therapist, commit to making yourself get better - you already know how to do it from your experience with anxiety. Read stories to your little boy, sing him your favourite songs. Your son deserves a mum who is happy to welcome him and who takes care of herself and of him, not the tonnes of stress hormones flooding the body from grieving your fantasy and grieving his presence. I’m sorry it’s harsh and I empathise with battling anxiety, been there - including in my pregnancy. But it’s not only about you now.

I'm concerned for her future children that did not choose to be born to someone who is finding it unbearable because her innocent little child is not the gender she wanted. People like this should not choose to have children. My thoughts are with the innocent child who has done nothing wrong but be the incorrect gender. Poor little thing.

You express yourself very well OP. You readily admit to having a life-long anxiety condition, which, along with your obsession with delivering a female baby, and your worries about being pregnant with a male, isn't a great start for you, and most importantly, and equally, your new baby boy.
I echo what almost PP have already said, with their heartfelt and very wise words to you, and I can't say it any better than any of them.
I too wish you all the very best OP, to you and your baby, and I do hope you keep up with your therapy and counselling.

I never told anyone this before but I was disappointed when I found out I was having a son. Now he’s 14 and I don’t know what on earth I was thinking, he’s an awesome kid and I love him so much, the gender really doesn’t matter at the end of the day once they come along. I really emphasis with your situation and I hope you get the help you need x

And my thoughts are with a vulnerable woman who, with the right support in place to talk freely about her feelings and work through them, may overcome them and love her little boy. Instead she’s being told she’s an unfit mother and should abort the child, and is being reminded quite cruelly that the termination she had may have been the child she so desperately wants. None of that is advice or support. It’s a pile on. And it succeeded in driving yet another OP off her own thread - possibly before benefiting from reading some of the more understanding and supportive comments.

I read her post last night and I'm still shaking my head. Commented on the "not interested in a boy" then, today I will mention the comment on some woman will be "rewarded" with a girl as a grandchild after having boys.

Well yes, after the booby prize and disappointment of having boys as children (the poor thing) she will finally get some form of compensation with a girl as a grandchild (although a grandchild is not the same as your own child so it's small compensation really isn't it?).

Elevating the worth of one sex over the other. It's shocking.

Ultimately we know that some people are not cut out to be mothers. A prerequisite of being one is that you love your child unconditionally. There are many horrific stories of shite mothers, and having no interest in a child if they have the 'wrong' genitalia makes you one.

I'm going to say this (and it may be controversial), but this disinterest or hate of the male sex (despite sleeping with one which makes even less sense), is this an English thing? I've never come across this in Ireland. Here its often the male who looks after his mother, sends mothers day cards/flowers, drives their mother to appointments, checks in on her etc. Is there a lack of this among English people? I'm trying to figure out where this unfavourability of males comes from. I've only ever come across it on here, and its predominantly English people on here. This emotionally cold viewpoint has to have some root behind it. By extension the views towards transgenders (mtf) is another on here that is particularly vociferous ("terf island"), so there does seem to be a much stronger feminist, anti male stance on the island of Britain (certainly England) than anywhere else (other anti-trans places like america or the middle east are due to religion, but religion plays very little role in explaining the English attitude). This coldness, is it related to an English boarding school type phenomena? There has to be something behind this outlook, and it exists as its evident on here. I cannot imagine places where people are considered warm and friendly (northern English cities for example) having such a cold attitude. I have come across Liverpool mothers for example, and no way could I see scouse women not being as interested in their sons as their daughters (I can see a lot of similarities between them and Irish women, Liverpool having such a strong connection with Ireland).

I think the judgement comes from because there is a little, innocent, helpless human being in this situation. It’s not like buying a house then regretting your choice. A child should never be unwanted or unloved or a disappointment because it’s not the right sex. So yes people will judge if someone’s love is that conditional. I know OP has some big MH issues going on but there is genuine concern for this (or any) baby’s future welfare.

I think this is one of the downsides to gender scans. I could have had one when I had my three but I didn't want to know the sex of my baby until s/he was born. That's probably quite unusual now.

I did want to have a daughter, I won't deny it. I was fully convinced that my first was a boy, and it was a delightful surprise to have a girl! I don't think in the euphoria of post-birth I would have been disappointed with a boy though! I went on to have another girl, and my third a boy. I'd have been quite happy with another girl (and DH and I were a little sad when I sent the pink babygro home!) but it was wonderful to complete our family with our son.

You won't be able to see this right now but every baby has its own little personality and grows up to be their own person. It doesn't matter whether they're girls or boys - they are your child. My girls played with Thomas the Tank Engine and Bob the Builder. My son loved dolls and play kitchens and his sisters dressed him up - he wanted lipstick so I gave him lip salve lol. I dressed them all in trendy clothes not frilly dillies on the girls and dull boy stuff on my son.

I’m sorry OP but women aren’t ’being made to feel guilty for desiring a particular gender’.

Some women do have an idea of what it would be like to have a daughter or a son, but that idea never lasts beyond the reality of birth. All anyone really wants is a baby, and they have absolutely no control over the type of baby they get anyway.

You’ve asked for no negative comments, but your state of mind is extreme. I do think it is something you need to address. It isn’t ‘reasonable’ and it isn’t healthy either for you or for the baby.

Lots of the unfavourability you speak of are related to facts @ChessorBuckaroo . So the facts that men commit 98% of crimes etc. the facts that 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted by a man. Etc Male pattern violence isn't limited to England, it's global.

Oh I got all that when I had my son after two daughters! It was all, "isn't it great you got your boy" as if that was all I'd been interested in, particularly after two miscarriages. I wasn't in pursuit of having a son at all! Or "isn't it the cherry on the cake that he's a boy?" No, it was the cherry on the cake to have a healthy baby.

Unless they were all late miscarriages, then I don't know how she knew they were boys? I didn't know what either of my lost pregnancies would have been. It's something I still wonder about very occasionally.

Or did she just convince herself that they were boys?

My aunt had taken it into her head that I couldn't carry boys (on zero evidence!!) - she had three girls and kept going until she had The Boy who was massively spoiled all his life. I think when DS was born she would have liked to have taken his nappy off to check!!!

I'm sorry you're disappointed OP. If I'm honest, the reason I judge people who react badly to the sex of their child is because the sex of your child means literally nothing in how important they are, how close you'll be to them, what they'll be like as a person. If someone says they're disappointed because they aren't having a girl, that means there's something specific they think is intrinsic to having a girl that you don't get with a boy - and it's very, very often a vision of cosy mother-daughter closeness, or a vision of a girly girl who wants to do ballet, or some other fantasy that may not ever happen. Plenty of daughters are not especially close with their mothers, or aren't especially girly, or don't want to do dancing or wearing pretty dresses or anything else. Ditto when I see men sulking that they're not having a boy because they wanted someone to go to the football with or whatever - there's a projection of their ideal child based on a presumption of what a boy or girl 'should' be like, and that just feeds stereotypes. The only thing you're guaranteed to get if you had a daughter was the same chromosomes as them: that's it. Everything else is based on your idea of what you think a daughter will be like, not leaving any room for your child to be their own person.You felt like you knew this potential daughter because you had decided what she was going to be like - now you're grieving something when you could be celebrating the relationship you're going to have with your son.