Gutted by gender stereotypes

[Genderstereotype]

I’ve name changed for this one as it’s outing!

I’m a lifelong (fairly hardcore) feminist and am so depressed about all the gender stereotypes you hear when pregnant and when you have a newborn!

Friends who I’d previously thought were pretty pro equality are just as bad and I feel quite down about it all!

All I get asked is ‘what are you having?’ (I don’t know) which I don’t really mind. But then they take this as a cue to launch into stereotypes about girls being <insert stereotype> and boys being <insert stereotype> It’s infuriating. I’ve heard stereotypes about dads wanting boys and mums wanting girls. Boys loving their mums more and girls being easy toddlers but hard teens. And various other BS. I don’t think I’ve ever heard such unashamed sexism in my life! Loads of it from teachers too!

I think gender stereotypes are incredibly limiting to both sexes and it’s making me genuinely upset (granted my hormones are wild right now too haha)

Is it just me? Can anyone else relate?

E.g. the fact that more testosterone = greater disposition toward risky behaviour. This is biology, not social conditioning.

There seems to be a genuine gap in public knowledge about differences between the sexes. People always act so shocked and offended when they are presented with facts that show that males and females have naturally distinct dispositions in certain areas. It's not some patriarchal conspiracy that men are women are different. It's biology.

Yes!

People can pretend otherwise, but of course there are biological differences.

I have a boy and a girl and, despite being exposed to the same toys, opportunities and education in mixed schools, they clearly display differences that correspond to 'gender' differences.

And yes, hormones have different effects too!

We wanted a girl but had a boy. We love him so much. I can honestly say, he was the easiest child and was not stereotypically 'boyish' in the slightest. He talked from 12 months, was G & T and did not follow strict gender stereotypes. His few loud, rough, stereotypically 'boys will be boys' friends fell by the wayside, in favour of more gentle, articulate and clever boys and girls. His favourite toys were a shop, a boy doll in a pram (when he would wear a string of fake pearls to go shopping) as well as the usual cars and trains. We banned guns, but he later made one out of LEGO.

He has always had as many female friends as male. His after school clubs were drama and dance, as well as football and karate. Now 24, he is articulate and emotionally aware. He still has friends of both sexes, is NT and straight, although we did think he was gay. He has straight, gay and self-declared non-binary friends of both sexes. If you have a DS, he will be what he is with your love and guidance. He does not have to be someone else's stereotype of what it means to be male.

Because they grow up in a society where gender stereotyping happens as soon as a babies sex is known. It’s hardly surprising.

I made sure my nephew was bought dolls and prams and pink toys and was shit hot on making sure there was never any toys for boys and toys for girls.

He loves trucks, cars, dinosaurs, fire engines and building stuff. He walks straight past the dolls aisle at the toy shop. Sometimes interests correspond to what is stereotypical. There is nothing innately wrong with girls liking pink and boys blue. Loud, rough, stereotypical boys can still be clever. It is not superior for children to dislike stereotypes. The problem is when they’re not allowed to pursue their own interests because of them.

How do we then explain the girls who don’t like playing with dolls (I was one 30 years ago’? Or the boys who hate playing sport?

Of course socialisation plays a part, but sometimes kids just like things.

There is nothing innately wrong with girls liking pink and boys blue. Loud, rough, stereotypical boys can still be clever. It is not superior for children to dislike stereotypes. The problem is when they’re not allowed to pursue their own interests because of them.

Absolutely agree with this, it winds me up a bit actually. When my friend’s 4 year old boy likes to dress up as Elsa or Ariel and dance around the kitchen she’s sharing it all over social media and isn’t it great, smashing those gender stereotypes whoop! My almost 4 year old girl does it, and she’s just conforming to society’s narrow expectations, how sad.

My daughter is in full princess phase at the moment. It’s certainly not come from us. I kept everything neutral when she was tiny and actively sought out/ dressed her in/ bought her activities, clothes and toys that were either more stereotypically associated with boys or at least less ‘princessy’. That’s partly because it was stuff I like/ find cool like dinosaurs and space, and partly to keep options open and so she didn’t feel that she had to conform due to lack of choice.

We tried toddler football and rugby classes, bought cars and trucks and dinosaurs and construction stuff. But she chose dance class, likes to colour and stick sparkly gems and glitter over everything, loves pink, unicorns, mermaids, dressing up, wearing as many accessories as possible at any one time and most of all Elsa Elsa Elsa (won’t watch the film all the way through, just loves the hair and the dress and the songs and the fact that Elsa has ‘magic freeze powers’ as she calls them).

Obviously it’s coming from somewhere - I’m not arguing that it’s innate that girls are born just inherently wanting sparkly hairclips and to do ballet. But it’s fine that she chose the ‘girly’ stuff - at least for now. It doesn’t make her lesser.

I did kind of want a girl when I was pregnant, but I pictured a so-called ‘tomboy’ somehow. That’s not who she is - not right not anyway, who knows how things might change. And who she is is awesome - she wouldn’t be any better or more worthy if she was more into boy coded things, and the stuff that she loves to do isn’t any better when a boy does it.

There will always be some exceptions.

I don't think anyone says there's anything wrong with kids liking gender-stereotypical things and I also don't like people acting superior if their kids don't. The issue is with a lot of messages kids get that these are the only things they should like. As I said earlier, kids are looking for rules on how to behave and they can take it very seriously if they're made to feel they are breaking a 'rule'; I'll never forget how, as a 'tomboy' some other kids would literally treat me as if I were being 'naughty' for playing with Transformers or having 'boy's trainers'. Fortunately I didn't care but there are some kids who get taught that they can only like certain things and what they like does seem to have a limiting impact on boys and girls in what they think they can do, are good at, and can be like as people.

Because they grow up in a society where gender stereotyping happens as soon as a babies sex is known. It’s hardly surprising

Even rhesus monkeys will, when presented with human toys, fall into stereotypical patterns (eg males preferred toy cars, females the babies). It is embedded deep in the human psyche.

And anyone who knows young kids knows it is difficult to get them playing with something they don’t actually like ….

I think we should be relaxed about this and not try to control human nature. People get upset when their girls are into sparkly princess shit and their boys into toy cars. Tbh what does this even matter? Give them a variety and let them be.

Sexism is deeply embedded. As young as babies, adults are known to play with them differently based on their sex.

Like I said, it isn’t surprising at all that most fall into the typical stereotypes.

There are actually a lot of inate differences in the sexes from birth which dictate behaviours later on, and the socialisation argument is has been really exaggerrated. For example, very very young baby boys are more likely to focus on moving objects and girls are more likely to focus on faces.

The other day I was out with friends and their toddlers - there was a digger. The boy was absolutely transfixed by it, and the girls completely ignored it. I tried to get my daughter excited about it, pointing out how it works etc. But she could not care less.

Interestingly, countries that have done the most to eliminate gender stereotyping and promote equal opportunities often have the greatest gender divides in areas like career choices (e.g. more female nurses, more male engineers).

My toddler boy couldn’t care less about diggers.

We need to stop trying to fit every boy and girl in stereotypical boxes.

I also made an effort to get my daughter a lot of "dynmanic" toys with a propelling movement, which are stereotypically more boyish - cars, balls, things that pop up. But she's really not as interested in them as in her doll and cuddly animals. She'll try them for a few seconds then ignore them. I also encourage her to run around and explore because she's always been very stationary, but she seems to naturally prefer sitting still and focusing. So you might look at my daughter and think "she's so quiet and into her dollies because her parents (who she's with every day, all day) has conditioned her to be like that". But that's not true at all. These are her natural dispositions.

I hate the fact it's called a gender reveal party...: it should be called a biological sex reveal party

I never said all boys love diggers. I'm interested in biological fact, and accompanied it with one interesting anecdote from my experience.

Just look up innate sex differences. The science is there for all to see. It's not some mumbo jumbo conspiracy.

Personality definitely comes in to it. How you’ve described your daughter is also how I’d describe my son.

He loves dolls and cuddly toys.

And literally I don't know anyone personally who is trying to fit boys and girls into stereotypical boxes. I'm not sure what kind of world people who talk about this are living in. Unless these people live with their grandparents and only have elderly people as friends? Or they assume that because girls and boys like stereotypical things, they MUST have been forced to like them.
What I see is children developing interests naturally, and their parents getting really excited and buying things that suit their interests, so that the interest can develop.

I’ve just had twin girls and I’ve had nothing but gender stereotypes since they arrived from families, friends and strangers. Not to mention like I’ve already mentioned on here, the abundance of pink, glitter and unicorns.

Of course girls tend to like unicorns more if it’s been encouraged since birth.

*Even rhesus monkeys will, when presented with human toys, fall into stereotypical patterns (eg males preferred toy cars, females the babies). It is embedded deep in the human psyche.

And anyone who knows young kids knows it is difficult to get them playing with something they don’t actually like ….

I think we should be relaxed about this and not try to control human nature.*

Yes, agree completely!

Both my own upbringing by parents trying to encourage gender neutral toys and activities as well as my experience of raising both a girl and a boy have revealed the extent of biological differences between the sexes!

There will always be exceptions, but for the majority of cases the typical gender stereotypes are based on biological differences.

Of course girls tend to like unicorns more if it’s been encouraged since birth.

No, not in my experience at all.

I also don't believe that boys would necessarily like pink unicorn over diggers if they've been exposed to lots of unicorns. Children KNOW what they like intrinsically!

Nonsense. That’s not what the research says.

https://bsd.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13293-023-00489-9#:~:text=The%20subsequent%20study%20in%20rhesus,human%20boys%20(wheeled%20toys).

Read Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender. And recognise that unless we somehow raise children in a vacuum, we won’t know how they would behave without social ideas about gender.

A lot of comments reducing this down to cloths and toys when actually the consequences of this stereotyping is much much more problematic.

There's a reason why girls do much better academically and yet boys still end up making more money. There's a reason 1 in 3 women have experience sexual assault. There's a reason 75% of suicides are men.

The obsession we have with gender has far far more frightening consequences than whether a child plays with trucks or dolls.

I can empathise to both sides. My DS4 loves nothing more than putting his frozen dress on and playing princesses- he chose the dress himself and just thinks it's really beautiful. He loves painting his nails.

He also loves wrestling (rough and tumble) with his dad, and he loves rugby. Hes incredible sensitive, caring and affectionate. He plays with dinosaurs one day and glittery pink wands the next.

On the other hand I also recognise that there are some significant differences to his female peers and vice versa - although appreciate there are exceptions to the rule. At nursery the girls would often play together, the boys on their own. Not always, but mostly. He finds it difficult to sit still and it takes a lot of energy to help him focus, his female peers seem more able to do that. Again, there are exceptions to the rule, but I've read it's generally more challenging for boys to sit still for periods of time I.e. carpet time.

So I can empathise with both sides of the argument candidly.