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Having a girl will divide us

476 replies

CrunchyCrump · 15/01/2022 06:52

I realise this is going to polarise a lot of people and I’m not sure what I’m looking for by posting, everything feels pretty dark at the moment so reaching out perhaps.

I’m expecting a DD in Spring after a DS. Because of my husbands religion, which I don’t share, she isn’t going to have the same freedoms in her choices that I’ve had. Having to marry into the religion for instance or conforming to religious dress.

Yes this was a discussion before we even married, but I’m now struggling with the lived version of an abstract thought. There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

I’ve spoken to DH, he does understand to an extent but when I ask for compromise he can’t meet me halfway on this because it’s so clear in his religion.

I’m so sad, it feels like this baby will cause us to separate and I don’t want that but at the same time I don’t know how I can accept a future where she doesn’t have a choice.

It’s my fault completely I accept that, I feel like I’ve screwed all of our lives up but I just can’t see a way forward.

OP posts:
driftcompatible · 15/01/2022 09:34

Wow. Leave. You're basically bringing a child into oppression and abuse - knowingly and willingly. Leave. Leave. Leave.

Enko · 15/01/2022 09:36

@girlmom21 that link was really interesting thank you for posting it

Franklin12 · 15/01/2022 09:37

Religion has a lot to answer for especially as it’s one that favours men’s right and dictates they are in charge of women.

How did you get into this situation?? Surely you knew you needed to tread carefully.

Popcorn925 · 15/01/2022 09:37

Surely a good father would take whatever "punishment" in exchange for his daughter's freedom?

RobotValkyrie · 15/01/2022 09:37

Not all Muslims choose to act like Talibans. But the ones who do always use their religion as an excuse. You don't have to accept that.

PinkSyCo · 15/01/2022 09:40

Too late now but you should never have had children with this man. It would be awful if you allowed your DD to suffer for your mistake so divorce is your only choice isn’t it?

sanbeiji · 15/01/2022 09:44

I’m from a Muslim country, went to a Muslim school, did Islamic history.
The Quran must be interpreted in its historical basis - see this:
www.searchforbeauty.org/2016/01/02/fatwa-on-hijab-the-hair-covering-of-women/

  • I will try to find some other English links.

Btw there are world wide movements for the freedom of Muslim women. In Saudi Arabia the rules have loosened. In my country women have protested and gone to court over their rights. It’s the patrichal interpretations of the male clerics.

www.salon.com/2021/05/29/muslim-women-are-using-sharia-to-push-for-gender-equality_partner/

People like your husband a) drive the cause backwards b) don’t understand his own religion. If you oppress your daughter heavy be your sins on the day of judgement.

MamaGaia · 15/01/2022 09:45

OMG no, Islam is not restrictive to women. It really isn’t. It’s all about interpretation and control. Look at how open minded and “westernised” countries like Afghanistan and Iraq were before the Taliban took over Afghanistan or the US invaded Iraq. Look at how Iran used to be before the extremists took over.

These are all Muslim majority countries and they were not restrictive to women at all.

It is not the religion that controls women, but the men who decide how it should be applied.

My parents are practicing Muslims, and are strong in their faith, and my upbringing was nothing like you describe.

If your husband is as close minded as he apparently is, then I’m honestly surprised he married you, even though it’s allowed Islamically. People with his mindset tend to marry people as close minded, so I even thought perhaps you’re a troll as it’s so unusual.

Please research these things and show him that his interpretation is just that, an interpretation. And tell him about the first Muslim woman - the Prophet’s wife, Khadijah, who was a businesswoman who never covered her hair. Or his later wife, Ayesha, who went into battle with men. These women were with the Prophet himself and were not controlled.

But these arguments I say to you to help persuade him. To you, I can’t help but think why did you marry him. I’m a Muslim and I would never have married someone with that mindset. It is possible that he says all this now, but as she gets older he relaxes, but I wouldn’t put my faith in that.

Also, I know you say it’s religion, not culture, but culture does matter, as it is also culture that applies and enforces the different interpretations. What is his background?

Rubyglitter · 15/01/2022 09:46

You need to tell him that it’s the 21st century and girls and boys should be treated as equals. You’re also (I’m assuming) residing in a society where girls and women have the freedom to make their own decisions eg. Clothes, friends, hobbies and courses they will take at school/college/Uni. If he wants to follow Islam then fine, but he cannot force you or his dc to do the same. Please don’t feel coerced.

I could not be with a man who agrees with the oppression of women and does not think boys and girls are equal.

Shadowboy · 15/01/2022 09:47

Is this post real? I’m from a multi faith family. My father is Muslim and mother Christian. I consider myself Christian. My father never ever inflicted religion- he taught it to me but it was never forced or inflicted. We had a Quran in the home in English and Arabic which I was encouraged to learn from but nothing else was ever inflicted. My parents returned to my fathers home country and no punishment was handed to him?

Blueberry00 · 15/01/2022 09:49

I assume it is Islam.

My husband is from Iran and we are expecting a girl at the end of February.

I am lucky that my husband isn't religious at all.

Of the practicing Muslims I know though, not all of them are oppressing their daughters.

There's many different ways to interpret a book and I think your husband is a bit of a mysoginist prick if he interprets it in a way to control girls.

You will always find what you're looking for in the Bible or Koran.

Scottishgirl85 · 15/01/2022 09:49

Why on earth did you marry this man? You cannot bring a beautiful baby girl into this world knowing the abuse she will suffer. You surely have to leave. Why was he able to marry someone outside of his religion? This makes me absolutely livid!

sanbeiji · 15/01/2022 09:49

@RobotValkyrie

Not all Muslims choose to act like Talibans. But the ones who do always use their religion as an excuse. You don't have to accept that.
Yes. In fact few people even realise that Khadijha (the Prophet pbuh’s first wife) was a wealthy businesswoman and owner of many properties. His second wife (Aisha) which contrary to popular claim was not a child bride rode into battle herself.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth

toomuchlaundry · 15/01/2022 09:50

Can I ask why some women choose to wear a head covering when not forced to, as they are choosing to wear an item of clothing which is a symbol of oppression for many women

girlmom21 · 15/01/2022 09:53

@toomuchlaundry

Can I ask why some women choose to wear a head covering when not forced to, as they are choosing to wear an item of clothing which is a symbol of oppression for many women
Lots of women don't see it as oppressive - they see it as modest which is what the Quran says dress should be.
Branleuse · 15/01/2022 09:54

Not all muslims or Jews cover their hair. As far as i know its a cultural expectation, not a religious obligation. A legal obligation in some places too, but certainly not religious requirement.
Do you live somewhere where most women do it?
Did you not consider this before having a family with this guy?
Is your marriage ok? Are you british?

MamaGaia · 15/01/2022 09:55

@toomuchlaundry

Can I ask why some women choose to wear a head covering when not forced to, as they are choosing to wear an item of clothing which is a symbol of oppression for many women
It’s a symbol of oppression to some women, hence why they choose to wear it.

Sometimes, however, it’s a cultural expectation or there is parental pressure.

Torunette · 15/01/2022 09:56

This is interesting.

My grandfather was from a Muslim community that was entirely isolated from the influence of the Ottoman Empire (their horde had gone another way). So by the 19th century, they were seen as unbelievably old-fashioned in their religious practice, and were seen as remnant of medieval Islamic culture (they were very much a warrior people at heart, everything was perceived in reference to horses, and they were still sacrificing cows on mosque land).

But weirdly, despite being a slice of 13th century Islam in the middle of the 19th century, my grandfather's culture was completely egalitarian. There was no segregation of the sexes at all. Children were educated to together and headscarves were only worn by women for the same reason as millions of non-Muslim women at the time: to save their hair from dust and dirt.

Indeed, my grandfather always used to make somewhat indignant remarks about men not being "proper Muslims" if they couldn't ride a horse (he gave allowances for camels), and it was seen as slightly embarrassing if your daughter couldn't ride.

This is how different Muslim culture can be. On the one hand, you've got birqas and purdah, and on the other, you've got my grandfather over the moon because my aunt has decided to breed ponies. Grin

Who is right here? My grandfather's community and values were far more authentic to older forms of Islam, and significantly less exposed to Western ideas, than Ottoman and Arab culture. Indeed, many of the cultural facets of western Muslim culture seem to be a weird medley of borrowed elite, urban cultures that were never practised outside cities (it's very hard to churn butter wearing a chador.)

I think, op, that the issue isn't religion, but the fact your DH is psychologically bound by a lifetime of modelled familial behaviour and attitudes where the excuse has been "Islam" rather than the truth, which is likely to be a received set of very oppressive ideas that function to control the family unit.

That said, this doesn't really help you much in your predicament. What might help is holidaying in other Muslim majority countries, or even watching subtitled dramas from Muslim majority countries, so your DH can start to see that Muslim cultures are all very different, depending on nationality, class and ethnicities.

Turkey does some good stuff in this regard.

Tyyy · 15/01/2022 09:56

toomuchlaundry

Can I ask why some women choose to wear a head covering when not forced to, as they are choosing to wear an item of clothing which is a symbol of oppression for many women

It’s not a symbol of oppression to wear a scarf. Where did you get that from? It’s ignorant to think and say this. Will you say the same to a nun who wears a cornette?.

AKASammyScrounge · 15/01/2022 09:56

I was wondering the same thing. He can:t be such a fierce proponent of his religion if he married outside it - unless you accepted all its strictures for yourself but now regret that your daughter will have to accept them too. Are you unhappy in this faith, OP? Do you wish something different for your daughter?

teaandtoastwithmarmite · 15/01/2022 09:57

This is so so wrong for a start
So men are allowed to marry outside the religion women can’t for instance.

How is that ok?Confused

sanbeiji · 15/01/2022 09:57

@MamaGaia

OMG no, Islam is not restrictive to women. It really isn’t. It’s all about interpretation and control. Look at how open minded and “westernised” countries like Afghanistan and Iraq were before the Taliban took over Afghanistan or the US invaded Iraq. Look at how Iran used to be before the extremists took over.

These are all Muslim majority countries and they were not restrictive to women at all.

It is not the religion that controls women, but the men who decide how it should be applied.

My parents are practicing Muslims, and are strong in their faith, and my upbringing was nothing like you describe.

If your husband is as close minded as he apparently is, then I’m honestly surprised he married you, even though it’s allowed Islamically. People with his mindset tend to marry people as close minded, so I even thought perhaps you’re a troll as it’s so unusual.

Please research these things and show him that his interpretation is just that, an interpretation. And tell him about the first Muslim woman - the Prophet’s wife, Khadijah, who was a businesswoman who never covered her hair. Or his later wife, Ayesha, who went into battle with men. These women were with the Prophet himself and were not controlled.

But these arguments I say to you to help persuade him. To you, I can’t help but think why did you marry him. I’m a Muslim and I would never have married someone with that mindset. It is possible that he says all this now, but as she gets older he relaxes, but I wouldn’t put my faith in that.

Also, I know you say it’s religion, not culture, but culture does matter, as it is also culture that applies and enforces the different interpretations. What is his background?

The original Muslim women were in fact tough and battle ready. They had to be as people of the desert. When Britain invaded my country our women learnt to use shotguns and defended their village while the men were away.

OP there are many examples of strong Muslim women, eroded by the patriarchy and history.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth

Islam was also a religion of science, Islamic scholars translated Greek texts during the European dark ages.

There’s SO MUCH out there. Do your own research.

C152 · 15/01/2022 10:01

@nwLondonDad

Just go with it, as he's living in modern times and obviously open minded enough to marry outside his faith, over time he will probably be liberal and not object to daughter living as you see fit. If he's a hands off dad, and you do the heavy lifting, he's going to find it hard to make demands. The divorce comments seem extreme, a happy family is more valuable than having to wear a head scarf or go to a girls school. 0-16 what could the restrictions be that are so bad? Once they start maturing they will start challenging any oppressive behaviours they have adopted, and with a liberal mother on their team they will begin to isolate their dads closed thinking. And if he is a true family man, he will just adapt and take pride in having a happy daughter. Life often throws in challenges and restrictions, but I think having a happy and loving home will help get over these hurdles.
"0-16 what could the restrictions be that are so bad"? Well, in Oz in the 90s, a bright 16 year old girl being taken out of selective (grammar) school by her father to enter into a forced marriage. Teachers in the 90s and 2000s thinking primary school girls had started their periods early only to find out they'd actually suffered FGM. (I want to be clear I am not saying Islam condones these actions. I am saying A LOT can happen when people think it's ok for men and women to be subject to different rules.) Also, don't underestimte the pressure of the wider family and community.
TheWeeDonkey · 15/01/2022 10:04

@teaandtoastwithmarmite

This is so so wrong for a start So men are allowed to marry outside the religion women can’t for instance. How is that ok?Confused
Because he's picking and chosing. I think its established now that the OPs situation is nothing to do with religion and everything to do with her husband taking advantage of her ignorance of his religion to control his family.
NYnewstart · 15/01/2022 10:06

Could the op even take them out of the country if she left? - presuming she’s originally from the uk.

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